Posted
Howdy guys,
I was asking myself if it is possible to swap containers in one go.
(Basically, something a little bit like Pro Tools Shuffle mode or Reapers Ripple Edit.)
So that we can move stuff around without moving other things out of the way first.
Is this possible?
Thanks,
tL.
(Example to clarify what I roughly mean: Containers= A-B-C. You pick A, move it between B and C.
Now C and everything afterwards gets pushed back. Which is a fast way of moving stuff around to arrange.
Same thing again: Containers= A-B-C. You delete B and C gets butted back against A to fill the gap. )
Sat, 2017-02-04 - 23:35 Permalink
There was something going on with "Make Room" and "Close Gap" in the Container Menu, right? I can't really remember..
EDIT: Alright, I figured that one out already. Still would be nice to know if we have something like I described above. Just faster and more convenient.
Sun, 2017-02-05 - 15:13 Permalink
There's no command like this yet.
There are quite a few implications with Swap Containers that are difficult to automate: Will this simply move each container to the other's position? Or might it be better to keep containers in place but merely swap their contents (phrases)? What happens to the container's lengths if they differ? What happens to aliases of these containers? What if the containers sit at different levels of nesting in the structure? What happens if one container is inside the other?
I mean, it would be doable, if it was limited to the most simple case: Swap positions only, while changing length to that of the other container. That would be a simple shortcut to moving them around.
How often does this occur with your workflow (example)?
Sun, 2017-02-05 - 16:38 Permalink
Well, swapping wasn't the best word I guess. Let me reclarify:
We have a root container which has an imaginable song structure of A-B-C-D-E on a global level. (With every letter containing various other containers etc.)
Now I want to move aaaaaall the stuff around to see if an A-D-E-C-B Container Sequence sounds better than our A-B-C-D-E sequence.
In PT11 I do this in about 10 seconds. In Synfire not so much... :)
Or second example: You have 4 instruments in a container.
You have 8 copies of that container with variations of the main figure arranged in a linear fashion on your timeline.
Same thing now, I want to rearrange the sequence of these containers to see if I can come up with a better sequence.
Stuff like this is especially kind of critical when you do music to picture because you have to move stuff around to see what fits best where aaaaaaaall the time. ;)
You would loose an awful amount of time if you always have to "make room" first and move stuff out of the way, then paste or move other stuff in and so on.
I was thinking about something like the typical Ripple/Shuffle/Slip Editing . (The term depends on DAW you use.)
Really nothing fancy. These functions are around for decades. Again, "Swap" might have been a bit misleading.
Pro Tools is famous for this, Reaper ripped it off. Logic has something like this as well as have quite some other pro level applications and every 2-Track Editor.
(As well as all Movie editors... Obviously, it is even more important there, because time is pure money here usually...)
Digital Performer has something similar, though not that fast: "Paste time/ insert time/cut time"
or "cut time" command in Digital Performer.
I think you get the point. And given that you can go very complex in Synfire and still have a very good overview I think that this is might be a huge help
without having to do 2-3 steps minimum in between just to move stuff around to see if a A-D-E-C-B Container Sequence sounds better than your A-B-D-D-E sequencer.
And usually, these sequences tend to be *much* longer than a simple A-B-C-D-E. More like A-H or longer...
(For guys that do classical film stuff this might even be still not enough because there are changes all the time...)
Let me know if it is still not clear what I am getting at here. ;)
Best,
tL.
Fri, 2017-02-10 - 21:40 Permalink
Thanks for taking the time to explain. I think I got the idea. Indeed interesting. Despite using many DAWs over the years, I am surprised this feature slipped my attention. I will have a look.
One question: How random or predictable would this "shuffling" need to be? I mean, with only 5 elements, the possible permutations are already endless. This needs to be contained somehow.
Sat, 2017-02-11 - 00:58 Permalink
It is not random. Again, the name is misleading. It is just a strong workflow engancement.
Look at the .gif here in Logic for example. I think I should have done this in the first place.. :)
Logic is one of the oldest but not the best implementation (Pro Tools Shuffle Mode is) but I just had Logic open already.
Take a look here:
http://giphy.com/gifs/shuffle-in-logic-26xBz19o7eBq24UBG
Sun, 2017-02-12 - 21:23 Permalink
Ah, thanks for the GIF. That's basically a drag & drop variant of what Synfire and HN2 already do with the arrow keys:
- For the parent container, enable Keep Containers in a Row on the parameter inspector's Container tab
- Select any of the parts therein and move it around with the arrow keys
The only limitation is that containers need to be in a row, no gaps, filling the entire parent container. If necessary, you can group your small parts in a container for this to work.
The drag & drop thing should be cool for moving chords around in a progression, btw.