Posted
You really need to get a 20 something neophyte but smart music computer kid.. Let him go wild with SFP, and let him try to break it, lock it up, put it into a processing loop.. create a list of unanswered questions, and most importantly, the stumbling pointss of SFP.
I spent most of my 20's and 30's doing that for ARP, MOOG, ARIES synths, Dr. T music software and Voyetra hardware and software. ... My job was to find anything which would frustrate stop or slow down the average user.. I LOVED my job, and I was great at it.
I would actually have arguements with the boss and software programs, on the way the software (sometimes hardware) needed to work.. Most programmers come from an engineering viewpoint, and can't see the invisibile music writing on the wall.. I dedicated 2 years to learning SFP, but don't use it much anymore, cause I can't get into the frame of mind of using it like you envision it. I'm not about to undo my decades of technical learning to suit SFP. The way it operates is just not 'natural to me'.. I get the principles and always continue to be amazed by them. (it's why I still stick around) But at 65, I can't afford to throw in hundreds or thousands of hours learning a brilliant but esoteric piece of software.. I need to use my time left to write as much music as I can.. Indeed struggling with some of SFP has forced me to improve my eartraining, arranging, composition.. I take much of what SFP does, and do it by hand in Logic now.. and am quite pleased with the result.. Cause I never would have written something like I'm doing now without learning to swim with SFP
And most young people, already braindead with ADTD brought on by years of TV, being spoiled, ingesting artificial, sweetners, processed food, trying to jam way more data than the human brain was designed for, have far less patience than me.. Look at this extremely fast growing trend of 20 year olds buying the the most outragous pieces of analog synth modules.. It's complicated at first, but with the cables, and experimenting they are getting it.
The program has amazing potential, but that's mostly what it is right now, is potential. Until you strip it back, take note of your users desires , and find a way to simplify/modify it, it's mainly going to be your muse for composing, and not used by a lot of others..
I've seen a huge number of people defect to RC, even Band-in-a-box in the last year.. These programs pale by comparison to the power of SFP, but you get musical workable material, that you can understand how to make in a short time..Most of what I've generated by SFP has been 'happy accidents'. There's too many factors intersecting each other to gain a thorough working knowledge.
When I worked for Dr. T's Music Software in the 70 - 80's.. They wrote this cheap program KCS that ran on a Commodore 64, then 128, Amiga and eventually two models of Atari.. Emile Tobenfeld wrote the software, and if left to his own devices, would have made it more and more esoteric (as indeed his Algorhythmic Generator program was) The CEO Al Hospers, kept him abreast and in line with what else was out there (cubase, and Logic Notator).. We were always buying all the competition's software and dis-assembling it, to learn new tricks and refine our product.
Look what ARP and MOOG did. They started with huge incredible machine.. seemingly unboundless in what they could do.. When they realized they only had a market in the hundreds for power like that.. They build stripped down versions, pre-patched, but could be overridden by user.. Their sales increased more than a thousand fold.. Then came along the DX7.. Which with all it's presets, seemed to simplify it even more (except FM synthesis has expential potential for complicity.. But the presets made it seem simple.. The pricepoint was where most musicians could afford it.
Logic was originally owned by a German company Emagic.. They build this extremely sophisticated scoring editor, (which with much time and patience I mastered).. An even bigger undertaking was the Environment section.. You could use the tools, to create extremely powerful blocks of code.. Patch it inline in the signal path.. You could do mind boggling things with it.. Create subroutines, which would take any sequence of notes and 'fit them into a modal scale or key.. Do super fancy sequencing tricks.. Problem was the coding was extremely deep, and poorly notated.. What have they done with it? Ignore it, It's still there, but they don't bother with it.. It's probably so deeply encoded into the program they just can't rip it out. Unfortunately most of the environment code is from Logic version 7 no longer useable in most cases..
I've found with making music.. You can create something with the potential to be a true masterpiece.. But that sometimes means, setting that aside, and starting from scratch again, to get rid of unessicary parts.. I'm certainly not suggesting you start over, although I'm sure several times, you've really had to rip the code apart, to rebuild part of it, to make it do what you want.. I've done that with musical pieces a lot..
I wish nothing but the best for you Andre, and SFP.. The workshop idea seemed like a dud, cause I believe there are literally only about 6 people who have a very thorough working knowledge of the ins/outs of SFP.. I certainly could never host a seminar. I might know about 10 % than some other users.. I get frightened to close it down, cause it keeps asking and informing me of all these 'racks' I am about to disrupt.. I never understood the Drones with Logic..
I don't wish to come accross as a 'hater', or angry. But I am very frustrated.. SFP was the largest financial investment I ever made in software.. And I don't feel like I got my money's worth.. I notice the posts.. New people come in, ask tons of questions, suggestions, etc, and then gradually disappear.. That's got to be telling you something..
But I'm not giving up, I'm gonna hang in there cause one day a lightbulb in your head is going to turn on, and then the REAL MAGIC will begin.. Waiting patiently.
So., 20.07.2014 - 16:21 Permalink
(Mark, I moved your post to its own thread, because it was not related to the bug report and deserves a detailed reply)
Since you addressed me personally, allow me to respond.
And most young people, already braindead with ADTD
I don't think young people in the music scene today do suffer from awareness deficits, hyperactivity and impatience more than in the past. According to my perception, the number of patient, dedicated geeks and enthusiasts has not changed. It's just that the total number of people using affordable production technology today has increased a lot, which might explain your perception.
There's too many factors intersecting each other to gain a thorough working knowledge.
Basically there's just Harmony and Figure (and containers to place them anywhere you like), but I understand that the comprehensive, unrestricted user interface around it can be intimidating and confusing. This is something we are constantly working on.
We've already had a lot of communication and I remember you are using Synfire to import and export static MIDI files back and forth to/from Logic. This is a very lossy and laborious procedure that bypasses most of the capabilities of Synfire and eliminates much of its power. Synfire was designed to render original music from figures, harmony and other parameters. It was not designed to edit existing music.
Or, to name an analogy, Synfire is like a synth that generates output depending on how you connect cables and turn knobs. It does not work the other way round, i.e. listen to audio signals and then move the knobs accordingly to resemble the original sound.
For a similar example, in computer graphics (CGI), you build a wire frame model, add textures, light and motion. This renders the pictures of your film. Nobody would expect a software to look at the pictures and reverse-engineer the wire frame and everything from that, so one could edit some details, re-render the scene and still get the same thing as a result.
This however is exactly what editing exiting music with Synfire implies.
Despite the inherent difficulty, Synfire masters this reverse-engineering to a large extent (when importing MIDI files). However, this is just a means to feed it with material that you subsequently use to compose inside Synfire. It's technically impossible to get the reverse-engineering perfect enough in order to be able to edit existing music this way.
That being said, your preferred workflow and Synfire are probably a 30% match only.
I never understood the Drones with Logic.
You don't need them, because you are working with external MIDI.
I can't get into the frame of mind of using it like you envision it.
The new communication that's currently in the making will help you with this. I am curious to see if and how this might change your perspective and encourage you to use a new workflow.
I get frightened to close it down, cause it keeps asking and informing me of all these 'racks' I am about to disrupt.
Just ignore this warning message and let it save the rack. This is a feature other users have requested. You probably don't use different racks that much.
They build stripped down versions, pre-patched, but could be overridden by user. Their sales increased more than a thousand fold.
Yep. A simplified user interface is top on the agenda. Every user has different demands and expectations. There is no 'average user' we could take as a model. So finding the common denominator across very different target groups, use cases and workflows is the actual challenge. And this is also why it takes longer to get here than usual. We might even end up with different products that could not be put into one.
New people come in, ask tons of questions, suggestions, etc, and then gradually disappear.
This perception can be misleading. Only a tiny fraction of users register with the forum. This is a support forum. Not everyone seem to have the same desire talking about their making of music for long, unless they face a problem. Therefore, I'd rather see it from a positive side. I myself behave the same way on other forums.
Also, even if disregarding language barriers, expressing musical ideas with words is difficult unless someone has a formal music education. In contrast, talking about tech is easy, which is why a DAW forum will always show more activity.
Despite HN2 selling in much higher numbers than SFP, there is almost no forum activity for it here. Even though it provides the same level of insight into harmony. Cognitone software goes beyond tech into the realms of musical concepts and that's possibly something many users don't yet feel familiar with. Last but not least, a forum is certainly not the best medium for this kind of communication.
Receiving all feedback from users outside the forum directly, I have a good idea of the current level of customer satisfaction. I agree there is a need for improvements and we will continue to work on them, but those many happy customers that get along with Synfire without any help tell us that we are not too far off the path.
Unfortunately, almost every pro that makes a living off composing music is currently reluctant to talking publicly and spreading the word. They want to keep it a secret to maintain a competitive edge (no joke, I've been told this repeatedly). Admittedly, this is a problem for Cognitone, but I expect this to improve over time as it slowly spreads anyway.
If something went in the wrong direction, I would have changed our strategy years ago. As you correctly noted, starting with a comprehensive and complete product and then gradually stripping it down to embrace beginners is the way to go. It does not work the other way round. I'm confident this year we will see a surge in demand and in customer satisfaction, as we put more effort into communication and help.
Sorry for the long post. I thought your points needed to be addressed.
Di., 22.07.2014 - 05:55 Permalink
Hi Andre:
Thank you for clearly addressing them... Yes, I certainly understand people wanting their secret formulas. I don't freely exchanged the 4 years of studying and trying out every aspect of The Tyros. 20 years back I did library music for Omni music.. I was surprised to hear Band-in-a-box riffs on others contributions to the label.. BIAB was and still is to a degree a 'dirty word'.. It's for people to lazy to learn to play.. Truth is like SFP it has it's own set of tools, different from what the average musician would use..
I apologize for my somewhat acrid post, I've just had a few bad weeks of other situations.. And feeling frustrated with music a bit..
I always know your heart and mind are in the right place..