Posted
At the moment it is impossible to get such a oversight of a composition in Synfire..see enclosed pic
The idea is to use only the rootcontainer in Synfire and add tracks in the arrangementscreen
Should be better to have groupfolders in Synfire
Coloring parts is important for th e composingprocess and the coloring must be added to the track when someone is recording a part.. coloring manual also
On this way i can paint the arrangementscreen
Assigning containers to get a arrangement structure like in the pic is impossible, so it mus be done in the arrangement screen itself
If this is possible then Synfire could create really great music i think
Mo., 12.12.2016 - 13:44 Permalink
Ofcourse it is not difficult to assign songsections in Synfire, but i like to see whole picture of the composition in coloring
Once assigned the tracks in a section ..there is no birds eye view of the composition ..i must go to the master container, there i can see i light grey the figures of the composition
Coloring containers make no sense here, because i wanto coloring the instrument groups:
-woodwinds : light blue
-strings :red
and so on
I think the possibility to color the (self choosen instrumentcolors) in the master container for the existingsongsections gives the oppertunity to have a birds- eye vieuw and grouping instruments
Working with containers for this complexity of arrangement for composing is not enough/possible
There must be coming a new tab in Synfire for people who want the compose on a visual way in the arrangement screen.
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Getting the arrangement screen in instrument colors (arrangement in color) that's the way, serious orchestral composers are working
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I don't see how i make this course composition in the current state of Synfire!
I hope they can think big at Cognitone..big orchestral arrangements
Mo., 12.12.2016 - 20:05 Permalink
Here is a link on how to change the colours of containers: (http://users.cognitone.com/comment/15142#comment-15142)
You can create containers for woodwinds, strings, strings2, and so on. only add figures in the woodwinds container for woodwinds, etc. Providing you have the pro version (which I think you do), you can have as many containers as you need and arrange them in many different ways including nesting them, arranging them horizontally and vertically, even creating alias containers.
Your birds eye view then becomes the container layout, all neatly coloured as per your instrument grouping. You can also nest these 'instrument group' containers within containers for intro, outtro, build, or anything thing else you can think of.
Mo., 12.12.2016 - 20:49 Permalink
Yes , i already now this, but i like to give structure to my arrangement in the rootcontainer for instrumentsfamilies to color them
I think i do have then a better oversight of the composition then using the containers ( it is impossible )
Look at the two pictures of the composition with all coloring..i do need a visual look with colors for the composing process
This must be the wanted containerstructure : http://users.cognitone.com/files/forum/1501/track_structure_1_arn.jpg
Better is the ability to color the master container tracks , while the figure pattern is shining thrue the color like in the pic
In fact it is bypassing the containerstructure buildup in Synfire
Mo., 12.12.2016 - 21:58 Permalink
still unclear what you want. Are those coloured boxes, sub-containers of the root or the instrument tracks themselves in the root container?
If the second, how would you show sub containers or nested containers? Assuming we keep the ability to have multiple containers, would there be a similar view for every container? If so that picture might be useless as none of it might actually be played depending on the parameters in other containers, would that matter to you? How do you see the heirachical nature of containers being interpreted by your diagram?
Di., 13.12.2016 - 12:42 Permalink
Yes, there is needed a instrument coloring in the rootcontainer and also a rough container structure set up outside the rootcontainer ( sections ) ..they must be working together and interact.
Also group folders needed
At the moment the containers are not suitable for composing real interesting big orchestral compositions like i study in course
Disappointing this ..Synfire stays on this way limited in use
Di., 13.12.2016 - 15:28 Permalink
Blacksun ..is it now clear for you ?, how i do want use a rootcontainer for coloring instrumentfamilies for orchestral arrangements, because the containers in Synfire cannot do that coloring instrumentfamilies
Only to a certain level..
Seems to me exciting to have this in Synfire composing with instrumentcoloring in the rootcontainer ( or pack container?) and the power of the containers to do something special.
How about a owncomposer master container for colored instrumentfamilies with the coloring funcionality?
- once choosen a color for a instrument : recording adds a color for the recorded measures and let shine the figure pattern thrue this (like in the pic)
- grouping channels in a folder -> can i add group channels to the matrix mixer ..on this way tou can control the instrumentfamily overall soundvolume
- the ability to color manual the instrumenttracks
Thats it.. let Synfire stay limited in orchestral composing caused by the container structure setup .. or extend Synfire with unlimited use of orchestal composing..by coloring instrumentfamilies like done by the hollywood composers.
Di., 13.12.2016 - 15:38 Permalink
I can see an advantage to having a view as per your diagram, with colours, but this would only make sense as a read only highlevel view of the results of all parameters from all containers. This would be the equivilent of exporting everything to a daw, or to a notation package, only integrated within Synfire and available at the click of a button or change of tab. I think it would have to be readonly for two reasons, firstly if you make changes how would synfire know which parameter from which container to edit; secondly, it takes time to process all of the different parameters and containers to work out what the result is (remember you sometimes get a delay when clicking play?).
I'd love this idea to be enhanced if the view could be generated based on the container you have selected.
However, you are wrong to say that synfire can not be used to create orchestral type music because it cant colour instrument sequences, it is just a tool with advantages and limitations compared to other tools. Just like a quill and parchment, in the right hands all tools can produce epic music. Mozart had just one colour to work with and didnt even have copy and paste! There are people that create great sounding orchestral pieces with synfire, with some commercial success. Search around and you will find examples.
Lastly, my connection to Synfire is the same as yours. I am just a user, I do not work for and am not connected with Cognitone in any way. I want Cognitone to continue so that the software I've purchased and value continues to be supported and enhanced. Statements implying Synfire is 'not suitable for composing real interesting big orchestral compositions', as well as being incorrect, may threaten that support and development by putting off potential customers.
Di., 13.12.2016 - 17:52 Permalink
It is composing like in a DAW as in Cubase what should be enhance Synfire i think, because containers can be still used.
Ofcourse there can be made fantastic orchestral music with Synfire but limited, but not with that ease as i have seen in course and on that level with Cubase
Its my personal opinion of the orchestral capabilities of Synfire and putting off potential customers, well that is not my intention.
Potential users will first try a demo and see if it works for them...
Synfire is a still a fantastic program and the use of libraries makes it very powerful, but the limited use of getting a good oversight of the music structure in all detail on all tracks makes it impossible to compose on that level like in Cubase ( probably also in Live or in Logic ..)
If it possible to see all figures colored from all tracks in the master container with coloring for instrumentfamilies then we have the same as in the enclosed pic
It is composing like in a DAW as Cubase in the root container ( or other dedicated one)..that's what i want
I am not afraid that the sound will not be heard with a full mastercontainer filled with orchestral instrumenttracks
Di., 13.12.2016 - 18:45 Permalink
In today’s email, I want to share a farily simple, yet effective orchestration tip that has helped me achieve way more powerful, clean and structured orchestrations.
Back when I was starting out and I had a theme in mind, I usually just opened my orchestral template in my DAW, and started “improvising” the orchestration, giving the melody to one instrument, recording some string chords, adding in some other elements, and so on.
However, the results always seemed a tad off. Either they didn’t sound full enough, or they sounded a bit messy and cluttered, or they just ended up like a chaotic mess.
If you find yourself in a similar situation, or feel overwhelmed at the entire orchestration process, I recommend that you do the following: Create a piano sketch.
Instead of trying to attack the orchestration right away, narrow down your composition to the bare essentials; Melody and harmony. Either record it with your keyboard or input with your mouse into an empty piano track.
From there, work on your harmony by tweaking the chord voicing (check out this article I did at Evenant for tips regarding this). I’d recommend using 3 notes + the bass note for every chord.
Play around with the voicing until you’re satisfied with the sound of the piano sketch alone. Try to make it as full and nice sounding as you can, using only the piano sketch and nothing else. If your piano sketch sounds good by itself, your orchestration is usually going to sound pretty great.
If you’re adding a third element, like an ostinato or counter melody, make sure to separate it from the two existing layers through placing it in a different range, a different rhythm, or using a different articulation/tone color. Again, do your best in making the piano sketch sound as good as possible alone. However, I’d recommend that you stick to only melody and harmony in the beginning.
Now, when you are satisfied with your piano sketch, you can start on the orchestration. In the article I linked to, I’ve arranged it for strings only. This is something I recommend you do in the beginning as well, to keep it simple.
Start by finding a suitable instrument for your melody. For strings, this would likely be the 1st violins. Next, move on to your harmony layer. By now, if you’ve done a good job with the chord voicing, you can simply take each note in the chord, and give it to different instruments (like in the article).
If you’re using strings, this means you’re giving the 4 voices to 2nd Violins, Violas, Cellos and Basses. No matter which instruments you choose, voice out the 4 different notes in the chords to an instrument each. If you’ve done a good job creating the piano sketch, most of the work here is already done for you.
The result using this approach will most likely end up sounding a lot more full, clean and powerful compared to just approaching the orchestration/recording process with no plan in mind.
I hope this little tip is helpful, try experimenting and practicing with it, and see if it helps with your workflow and results!
Practical approaches to orchestration are things I explore much more in depth in the course “Cinematic Music: From Idea To Finished Recording”, which will be available on Friday the 16th of December. More updates on that coming soon!
Happy composing!
Have a great week,
Arn
Di., 13.12.2016 - 23:04 Permalink
Enclosed the orchestral template ... it starts with rough piano track
The rootcontainer must be filled in with colored figures from the colors of the instrumentfamilies
woodwind = light blue
strings = red
....and so on
The whole composition must filled in with colored rectangles from recorded/drawed figures
Once a instrumentfamily color is choosen => recording adds a colored recording rectangle around the figure...drawing a figure adds also a colored rectangle around.