Posted
I know you all have more than enough on your plate. But I wanted to suggest a more open forum for the hotkeys.
Adding X brought back an early issue of placing a critical hotkey on the thumb wrapped underneath the other fingers, which are presumably on the qwe keys. This is uncomfortable for long periods of time and confusing.
The new quantize is awkward on the other side of the keyboard and zoom is especially out of the way -- so much so I almost never use it.
I see: "Drawing tool should switch to resize tool automatically when hovering over end symbol." On the dev list as another in that direction. Most daws don't use a separate drawing tool anymore (they still have it but its legacy and switching to it is no longer part of the main workflow)... It was a great improvement when they incorporated the drawing function into the main tool.
Cycling the snaps and tools, is awkward. I find cubases method of using the numeric keys far more intuitive and Sonars PVC seems to the very best and what I think should synfire should strive for. Generally on snaps Im going between 8ths and no snap to do this I have to repeatedly hit the same key over and over. I also have to watch the snaps on the screen, taking my eyes off the music in order to ensure that I hit the move to next snap button four instead of five times.
This is compounded by the fact that they alternate in triplets... A 16th snap is usually satisfactory if I was intending on 8ths... 12th's is absolutely not. Cycling is not working for me.
You have mentioned that you don't make changes till you have thoroughly thought through their ramifications, but all of the hotkeys feel tacked on, unergonomic and illogical. There are clear examples of better work flows that could be copied (pvc please) if its not your intention to improve on them.
This is NOT simply a matter of making a custom hotkey editor.
Perhaps looking at the reaper forum, where there is more commotion might give you some ideas. There are numerous posts discussing what their users would like in this arena down to very fine details.
I feel I have been using Synfire long enough and often enough that I am beyond the learning curve of the tools. They are just not of the standard of modern daws and don't seem to be striving towards that baseline. (And just to be clear I am not talking about Synfires harmonic 'tools' but literally the ways in which the mouse and hotkeys interact with objects)
All this said. The recent adjustments to certain editing feature have brought Synfire much closer to the editing experience of other environments. It just doesn't seem like there is a cohesive plan that is competitive with what is now the standard let alone the best.
I have sent video's demonstrating the work flows of other editors before. If you would like I will try and find the time to note all of the aspects in detail that I think should be considered. To start Sonar and Fruity Loops are probably the best places to look for their ergonomics in editing.
Here is another:
Mo., 14.12.2009 - 13:55 Permalink
Thank you for your suggestions.
Keyboard mapping is indeed a major challenge that is not easily mastered in one day. Even more so when an application is cross-platform, as many key combinations simply do not work on both platforms.
One might expect that CTRL, SHIFT, ALT, COMMAND and all the F-Keys and numeric pad keys are at the free disposition of the developer, but that's not the case. On the Mac, every hotkey requires the Command key, at least if it's supposed to appear in a menu. On Windows, this usually is CTRL, but CTRL + ALT do not work together.
Even worst: The most ergonomic areas on a keyboard tend to contain localized keys (i.e. differ per country, language and even keyboard manufacturer).
This is a mine field. :ouch:
No wonder you like Sonar so much in this regard. They can rely on Windows specifics alone, which gives them unlimited room on the keyboard to use for hotkeys.
We're not satisfied with the current hotkey assignments either. The first step towards a solution will be to make them editable.
Di., 15.12.2009 - 09:08 Permalink
I can think of lots of programs on OSX that contradict all of these points. I have a macbook as well as my pc desktops and I use quite a few programs that do all of the things that your say are not possible on the mac
Maya is a nice example, which has a mirriored keymap of Windows and Mac and Linux. I have used it in a professional context on all three platforms.
The OSX version definitely allows hotkeys without involving the command key -- for instance, just 'x' in osx in maya will force verticies to snap to the unit grid when dragging. In fact all of the hotkeys must work without the command key in that software. The entire keyboard is mapped to have functionality when not holding any modifier; the number pad as well.
In maya the ctrl(cmd), alt(option) and shift modifier work in every combination with the left, middle and right mouse buttons. These are used to quickly control the viewport camera. This is no more or less than what the PRV requires.
Every combination that is required by the Sonar PRV tool, is enacted in the OSX Maya as well as many others.
Do these issues instead have to do with the graphics toolkit that Synfire is built on? Is there another reason that I am missing? Something is amiss.
Finally as far as the language key map, all of these programs are offered in a bevy of languages and still function as expected. Perhaps this is just due to the manual work of making exceptions for each.
Di., 15.12.2009 - 09:38 Permalink
All that said. I am interested to see if a user configured key editor will suffice, though if it didn't need the CTRL key (al la cubases numerical tool selection) that would e great. I certainly dont mind working with Cubases UI which is a little less sophisticated than many of the rest.
Di., 15.12.2009 - 10:52 Permalink
The software you mention operates on the keyboard hardware, i.e. they bypass the operating system's API. We depend on the keyboard events sent by the OS. Many hotkey combinations are intercepted by the OS, as is CTRL+ALT on Windows, for example:
(http://www.ngedit.com/a_wm_keydown_wm_char.html)
Plain keys like 'x' do work fine when the associated widget has input focus. A hotkey should however work everywhere, and that requires the command key on the Mac.