Hi Ruchir. So, while doing a screenshot I figured out how to do what I wanted, which is drag figures into the KIM Factory outlets. I tried to open a seperate library to pin on top like Andre did in the video that I attached. But whenever I try to open a library, it opens a Phrase Editor, too (as you can see on the left hand side of the screenshot). And I don't have the option to pin it on top. That said, I can still drag and drop figures, just not the way I thought.
I just got Synfire in December, so some things are still new to me. I've figured out quite a bit over the past 24 hours with this upgrade and feel like I've just scratched the surface.
What I mean is that the only way I can see to open the library rack is from within the arrange app menus View Library Rack. This menu is not visible within the library app?
Try this toolbar icon (last on the right):
Although it's maybe a good idea to add this to the View menu too. That's why user feedback is priceless.
Ok - this is officially brilliant. I can now load up a library with a collection of phrases and its own rack connected to a VE Pro instance, and develop the library and sounds at the same time without having the arrangement window getting in the way.
I would like to use the VCV Rack plugin within Synfire. Unfortunately, so far I did not manage that. Usually, when I drag and drop a plugin from the rack modules library to an arrangement track, then the Sound Selection Wizard opens, the plugin loads, etc. With VCV Rack, however, the loading of the plugin in the Sound Selection Wizard never finishes. (The only way of out that I found is then quitting Synfire from within the OS taskmanager).
I am particularly interested in VCV Rack, because I would like to use what Synfire can do in a rich sound synthesis and processing context (e.g., using orchestral instrument libraries mangled with certain sound effect plugins, with their evolving settings controlled from the score). VCV Rack is particularly flexible for sound design, allowing to arbitrarily route signals in a fully modular synthesiser, that is not only itself a plugin, but can also host plugins etc. (Contenders like Bidule are nicely flexible too, but cannot compete in terms of supported modules etc.)
Anyway, just trying to understand why this plugin cannot be loaded, or whether I am perhaps something missing here. It is fine for me if it is confirmed that this plugin can currently not be used.
As a workaround, I could load it into my DAW (works fine there) and use something like MIDI drones or external MIDI instruments.
Yes, version 2. Version 1 was not available as a plugin itself.
The problem might be related to the fact that this plugin supports up to 16 audio inputs/outputs. Something like that was reported as a problem before for Synfire 1. However, if at least some subset of this number of channels could be used within Synfire, that would already be something.
Update: I made some progress on using VCV Rack. I can successfully load Blue Cat's PatchWork (a meta-plugin to load multiple other plugins) into Synfire, and then load VCV Rack into PatchWork and that way (indirectly) load and use VCV Rack in Synfire. Saving and loading a project with this nested setup seems to work, and so does saving and loading a preset.
However, the MIDI input directly from a controller into this instrument is seemingly not quite stable after reloading a project with this setup. However, external MIDI input may magically recover after previewing the instrument (headphones button), or after playing some figure.
Will later find out whether this is stable enough in production (e.g., in my actual instruments I have to also load PatchWork then again into VCV Rack as a plugin to use some MIDI plugin to preprocess input to VST plugins loaded into VCV rack, so having 4 levels of nesting plugins this way might turn out to be problematic...).
BTW, concerning external MIDI input: whenever I start Synfire I have to re-setup my MIDI inputs via Audio/MIDI Setup. Synfire tries to remember my external keyboard (PANORAMA P6), but after restarting Synfire the keyboard does not work. I first have to disable and then again re-enable its input to get it working. This was the same situation in Synfire 1 (Win 10), though.
For completeness, the predefined shortcut Shift-Ctrl-A for opening the Audio/MIDI Setup dialogue does not work either on my computer.
Unless VCV Rack has more than 70 audio output channels and 8 input channels, it should load into the Audio Engine. There should be no need to nest multiple rack-style plugins.
> Unless VCV Rack has more than 70 audio output channels and 8 input channels
According to its website, this plugin features up to 16 input audio channels: (https://vcvrack.com/Rack). Even as an instrument it may feature audio input channels (side chains).
I would not need so many audio inputs in Synfire, if everything above audio input channel 8 could be just ignored, that would already be a very generous amount of supported inputs.
I can verify that I also cannot load VCV Rack 2 into Synfire directly. It's a very new vsti and may be using vst specifications not coded into Synfire yet?
EDIT: ignore, just read the issue with inputs > 8 above.
Hey guys, i didnt read all here, but for my impression the whole sound setup logic is still very confusing.
There's too much goung on. Racks, Sounds, Modules. So many places to give names etc.
I still struggle to setup easy things.
See my video here... (https://www.dropbox.com/s/hfj90lgg4eq1qzy/Bildschirmaufnahme%202022-05-…)
I agree, but I think the idea is to support more complex things, like having tons of VST, presets and sounds, I guess, and as a downside it's a bit more complex for when you want to do easy things. That said, I must say that in V2 I've found that assigning a new sound to a track/slot (with the magnifying glass icon) was very easy thanks to the new dialog setup, way better than my first experience in V1.
Devices, sounds, instruments, racks... I agree that the concepts and perhaps even more so the bespoke terminology can be confusing. The idea in a nutshell is that the system offers working on a higher level than a DAW. For example, globally changing the instrument range directly affects the compositional output across the whole piece, which is very unlike how the sound setup in a DAW works.
However, I feel with version 2 now getting things set up is indeed considerably simplified, but you need to first understand some underlying concepts and, importantly, bespoke terminology. See here: (https://docs.cognitone.com/synfire/EN/concepts/Audio.html)
After digesting that, for getting started just drag & drop some plugin from the left-hand side list of plugins into your project creating a new track. Wait in the arragement window until there is a green rectangular area that you can move with the mouse, e.g., for creating a new track. Sometimes this can take a while, even on pretty powerful systems (e.g., on Windows with a Ryzen 9 5950x processor and 64 GB of RAM), which can add to the confusion at the beginning. Then work yourself through the wizard to create your sound setup, referring to the concepts you read about first.
Thanks for posting the video. Building a rack the way you did is much more work than simply dropping a plugin on an arrangement track and following the Sound Assignment Wizard's suggestions. It will create a device for you, suggest default names for everything. You only need to pick a sound category and be ready to go.
While you adjust playing ranges, custom CC and articulations for an instrument, with the next update you will have a new check box Save To Sound on those dialogs. When you click OK, your edits will be also written to the sound and saved permamently with the device description the Wizard created for you. So, no more device setup in advance.
First remember that there are 2 types of racks ( a sound module) to use for an arrangement:
- arrangement rack (named: Audio Plug in) : (one time use of racks, belonging to this arrangement))
- Global rack: can be used for 1 or more arrangements.
Try out the sound wizard to get some feeling.
The right column with sound settings has a large green square button and there you can see what type of rack types you are dealing with.
- Global rack ( multiple arrangments use )
- Audio Plug-in ( one time use in a arrangement )
currently after updating a global device, we can click a button to update a local (arrangement) device. Why not the other way round? We have export to global rack, but it creates a duplicate. Can we have it so that we have an option to export (and overwrite) and existing device on the global rack?
With Save To Sound the sound and device are updated in-place, global or otherwise. No need to copy or export. Only thing you need to do is check the Allow Modification In Arrange View box for that device.
The point of the Wizard is that it creates and extends devices incrementally as you need them. It does away with the cumbersome task of creating devices in advance.
> Next update Audio Engine 4.1.1 will accept guest plugins with 16 in / 70 out channels. Let's see how that plays out.
Unfortunately, I can still not load the VCV Rack plugin directly with the latest patch.
As reported before, a possible workaround is to instead load the "meta-plugin" Blue Cat's PatchWork into Synfire, and then load VCV Rack into PatchWork.
So., 24.04.2022 - 22:19 Permalink
Hi ultravisitor, are you ok to post a screenshot of what you are seeing. I don't think it's the same issue as I have, but happy to have a look.
So., 24.04.2022 - 22:54 Permalink
Hi Ruchir. So, while doing a screenshot I figured out how to do what I wanted, which is drag figures into the KIM Factory outlets. I tried to open a seperate library to pin on top like Andre did in the video that I attached. But whenever I try to open a library, it opens a Phrase Editor, too (as you can see on the left hand side of the screenshot). And I don't have the option to pin it on top. That said, I can still drag and drop figures, just not the way I thought.
I just got Synfire in December, so some things are still new to me. I've figured out quite a bit over the past 24 hours with this upgrade and feel like I've just scratched the surface.
So., 24.04.2022 - 23:27 Permalink
Excellent. Lots of tutorial vids to watch. Also checkout the user online get together zoom meetings.
Mo., 25.04.2022 - 08:45 Permalink
The app has two states switched with the toolbar icon: Collapsed with editor hidden (as in the video) and expanded with the editor open.
A new library app window it is initially empty. You need to open a library file to see any phrases to browse. Try Open >> Examples ...
Mo., 25.04.2022 - 08:51 Permalink
Try this toolbar icon (last on the right):
Although it's maybe a good idea to add this to the View menu too. That's why user feedback is priceless.
Mi., 27.04.2022 - 22:21 Permalink
Ok - this is officially brilliant. I can now load up a library with a collection of phrases and its own rack connected to a VE Pro instance, and develop the library and sounds at the same time without having the arrangement window getting in the way.
Do., 28.04.2022 - 12:00 Permalink
Yup. The library is like an arrangement without tracks and containers, in a way.
Mo., 02.05.2022 - 20:44 Permalink
I would like to use the VCV Rack plugin within Synfire. Unfortunately, so far I did not manage that. Usually, when I drag and drop a plugin from the rack modules library to an arrangement track, then the Sound Selection Wizard opens, the plugin loads, etc. With VCV Rack, however, the loading of the plugin in the Sound Selection Wizard never finishes. (The only way of out that I found is then quitting Synfire from within the OS taskmanager).
I am particularly interested in VCV Rack, because I would like to use what Synfire can do in a rich sound synthesis and processing context (e.g., using orchestral instrument libraries mangled with certain sound effect plugins, with their evolving settings controlled from the score). VCV Rack is particularly flexible for sound design, allowing to arbitrarily route signals in a fully modular synthesiser, that is not only itself a plugin, but can also host plugins etc. (Contenders like Bidule are nicely flexible too, but cannot compete in terms of supported modules etc.)
Mo., 02.05.2022 - 21:50 Permalink
Anyway, just trying to understand why this plugin cannot be loaded, or whether I am perhaps something missing here. It is fine for me if it is confirmed that this plugin can currently not be used.
As a workaround, I could load it into my DAW (works fine there) and use something like MIDI drones or external MIDI instruments.
Mo., 02.05.2022 - 23:17 Permalink
VCV Rack 2.0 right?
will try testing tomorrow.
Di., 03.05.2022 - 07:27 Permalink
Yes, version 2. Version 1 was not available as a plugin itself.
The problem might be related to the fact that this plugin supports up to 16 audio inputs/outputs. Something like that was reported as a problem before for Synfire 1. However, if at least some subset of this number of channels could be used within Synfire, that would already be something.
Mi., 04.05.2022 - 11:41 Permalink
Update: I made some progress on using VCV Rack. I can successfully load Blue Cat's PatchWork (a meta-plugin to load multiple other plugins) into Synfire, and then load VCV Rack into PatchWork and that way (indirectly) load and use VCV Rack in Synfire. Saving and loading a project with this nested setup seems to work, and so does saving and loading a preset.
However, the MIDI input directly from a controller into this instrument is seemingly not quite stable after reloading a project with this setup. However, external MIDI input may magically recover after previewing the instrument (headphones button), or after playing some figure.
Will later find out whether this is stable enough in production (e.g., in my actual instruments I have to also load PatchWork then again into VCV Rack as a plugin to use some MIDI plugin to preprocess input to VST plugins loaded into VCV rack, so having 4 levels of nesting plugins this way might turn out to be problematic...).
BTW, concerning external MIDI input: whenever I start Synfire I have to re-setup my MIDI inputs via Audio/MIDI Setup. Synfire tries to remember my external keyboard (PANORAMA P6), but after restarting Synfire the keyboard does not work. I first have to disable and then again re-enable its input to get it working. This was the same situation in Synfire 1 (Win 10), though.
For completeness, the predefined shortcut Shift-Ctrl-A for opening the Audio/MIDI Setup dialogue does not work either on my computer.
Mi., 04.05.2022 - 13:07 Permalink
Unless VCV Rack has more than 70 audio output channels and 8 input channels, it should load into the Audio Engine. There should be no need to nest multiple rack-style plugins.
MIDI input has always been an issue on Windows.
I didn't know Shift+Ctrl-A was the default shortcut on Windows. Will have a look.
Mi., 04.05.2022 - 16:01 Permalink
> Unless VCV Rack has more than 70 audio output channels and 8 input channels
According to its website, this plugin features up to 16 input audio channels: (https://vcvrack.com/Rack). Even as an instrument it may feature audio input channels (side chains).
I would not need so many audio inputs in Synfire, if everything above audio input channel 8 could be just ignored, that would already be a very generous amount of supported inputs.
Mi., 04.05.2022 - 17:00 Permalink
I can verify that I also cannot load VCV Rack 2 into Synfire directly. It's a very new vsti and may be using vst specifications not coded into Synfire yet?
EDIT: ignore, just read the issue with inputs > 8 above.
Mi., 04.05.2022 - 17:09 Permalink
For completeness, VCV Rack 2 is only VST2 so far.
Mi., 04.05.2022 - 17:51 Permalink
Hey guys, i didnt read all here, but for my impression the whole sound setup logic is still very confusing.
There's too much goung on. Racks, Sounds, Modules. So many places to give names etc.
I still struggle to setup easy things.
See my video here...
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/hfj90lgg4eq1qzy/Bildschirmaufnahme%202022-05-…)
Mi., 04.05.2022 - 18:24 Permalink
I agree, but I think the idea is to support more complex things, like having tons of VST, presets and sounds, I guess, and as a downside it's a bit more complex for when you want to do easy things. That said, I must say that in V2 I've found that assigning a new sound to a track/slot (with the magnifying glass icon) was very easy thanks to the new dialog setup, way better than my first experience in V1.
Mi., 04.05.2022 - 19:28 Permalink
> Too much going on: ...
Devices, sounds, instruments, racks... I agree that the concepts and perhaps even more so the bespoke terminology can be confusing. The idea in a nutshell is that the system offers working on a higher level than a DAW. For example, globally changing the instrument range directly affects the compositional output across the whole piece, which is very unlike how the sound setup in a DAW works.
However, I feel with version 2 now getting things set up is indeed considerably simplified, but you need to first understand some underlying concepts and, importantly, bespoke terminology. See here: (https://docs.cognitone.com/synfire/EN/concepts/Audio.html)
After digesting that, for getting started just drag & drop some plugin from the left-hand side list of plugins into your project creating a new track. Wait in the arragement window until there is a green rectangular area that you can move with the mouse, e.g., for creating a new track. Sometimes this can take a while, even on pretty powerful systems (e.g., on Windows with a Ryzen 9 5950x processor and 64 GB of RAM), which can add to the confusion at the beginning. Then work yourself through the wizard to create your sound setup, referring to the concepts you read about first.
Mi., 04.05.2022 - 19:41 Permalink
@spukipuki
Thanks for posting the video. Building a rack the way you did is much more work than simply dropping a plugin on an arrangement track and following the Sound Assignment Wizard's suggestions. It will create a device for you, suggest default names for everything. You only need to pick a sound category and be ready to go.
While you adjust playing ranges, custom CC and articulations for an instrument, with the next update you will have a new check box Save To Sound on those dialogs. When you click OK, your edits will be also written to the sound and saved permamently with the device description the Wizard created for you. So, no more device setup in advance.
Mi., 04.05.2022 - 19:48 Permalink
First remember that there are 2 types of racks ( a sound module) to use for an arrangement:
- arrangement rack (named: Audio Plug in) : (one time use of racks, belonging to this arrangement))
- Global rack: can be used for 1 or more arrangements.
Try out the sound wizard to get some feeling.
The right column with sound settings has a large green square button and there you can see what type of rack types you are dealing with.
- Global rack ( multiple arrangments use )
- Audio Plug-in ( one time use in a arrangement )
Mi., 04.05.2022 - 19:54 Permalink
Hi Andre,
currently after updating a global device, we can click a button to update a local (arrangement) device. Why not the other way round? We have export to global rack, but it creates a duplicate. Can we have it so that we have an option to export (and overwrite) and existing device on the global rack?
Mi., 04.05.2022 - 20:14 Permalink
thank you guys!
"Save to sound" sounds promising ideed!
Mi., 04.05.2022 - 20:23 Permalink
@Ruchir
With Save To Sound the sound and device are updated in-place, global or otherwise. No need to copy or export. Only thing you need to do is check the Allow Modification In Arrange View box for that device.
The point of the Wizard is that it creates and extends devices incrementally as you need them. It does away with the cumbersome task of creating devices in advance.
Mi., 04.05.2022 - 20:34 Permalink
Next update Audio Engine 4.1.1 will accept guest plugins with 16 in / 70 out channels. Let's see how that plays out.
Mi., 04.05.2022 - 23:43 Permalink
Excellent. Save to sound and wider support for bigger plugins will be great.
Do., 05.05.2022 - 06:47 Permalink
Thanks!
Di., 10.05.2022 - 07:50 Permalink
> Next update Audio Engine 4.1.1 will accept guest plugins with 16 in / 70 out channels. Let's see how that plays out.
Unfortunately, I can still not load the VCV Rack plugin directly with the latest patch.
As reported before, a possible workaround is to instead load the "meta-plugin" Blue Cat's PatchWork into Synfire, and then load VCV Rack into PatchWork.
Di., 10.05.2022 - 10:40 Permalink
Other workarounds invoking other intermediary apps
use Vienna ensemble pro
mini host which is free I think
fl studio has a free vst host plug-in
Di., 10.05.2022 - 17:30 Permalink
That 60kB patch did not include Engine 4.1.1. The new update does.