Posted
HI
I started playing with HN Le this weekend and I'm trying to work out if it supports Chord inversions as part of the software or whether they have to be manually entered. Various things I have read on this forum imply manual addition into the catalog or changing the Root (?) of a chord but in terms of getting inverted chords to show in a Pallete is there s way of doing this or is it a manual process ?
Actually, to edit my own query..... I can see from the menu that playing different numbers 'sounds' different inversions but is there any way to 'fix' these in a pallette ?
thanks
Sean
Mo., 26.03.2012 - 18:29 Permalink
(reposting my email reply here:)
Chord inversions are selected automatically, based on the pitch range of the gobal "Chords" instrument (editable) and the chords you played previously (voice leading). HN2 attempts to make transitions between chords as smooth and intuitive as possible.
In the progression notepad and editor, you also have the option to force a particular inversion by pressing 1,2,3,4 keys, or (temporarily) modifying the pitch range with SHIFT+Arrow Up/Down key.
Mo., 26.03.2012 - 19:06 Permalink
Hi Andre
OK thanks - do I have the ability to add an inverted chord to a Palette somehow ? So if I wanted to have C major say as C/E/G then E/G/C and finally G/C/E ?
I tried cloning a chord in the catalog with view to trying to change the interval, but it doesn't seem to accept it (is this a demo limitation) ?
Sean
Mi., 28.03.2012 - 21:51 Permalink
The theory behind HN2 distinguishes between chord classes (sets of pitch classes) and chord interpretations (collections of pitch). Class "Am7" includes all possible combinations of its notes, regardless of octave transposition. C3E3G3 and G2C2E4 and E1C2G3 all belong to the same class. The theory of harmony and its naming conventions are built on classes. The catalog defines chord classes and palettes show them in relation to each other.
Individual interpretations (inversion, narrow vs. wide voicing, low vs. high pitch) are a matter of physical performance, depending on the pitch capabilities of the instrument, voice leading rules and the composer's intent.
If individual inversions and transpostions were added to a palette, it would become extremely complex and difficult to read and use. It is already very comprehensve now.
It is certainly arguable whether the current way to modify inversion and pitch is intuitive or not. Adding this extreme variety to the visual tools however, would make them unusable. Let alone the theory behind it could no longer be handled.
Mi., 28.03.2012 - 22:05 Permalink
I should note that, for the rather simple application HN2 LE, the complete theory and interpretation model (which stems from Synfire Pro) may be a challenge. Most HN2 LE users do seem to compose for a single instrument only or some hard-wired sound setup, so the generality of the progression model is falsely perceived as a limitation, rather than the powerful thing it actually is (because it can serve any number of instruments at the same time).
We think about hiding this complexity and supporting hard-wired simple instrument setups.
Mi., 28.03.2012 - 22:43 Permalink
Hi Andre
Thanks very much for your replies..
However what concerns me is that in my opinion any product called 'harmony navigator' should do 2 things;
(1) Calculate recommendations and a way forward for complex harmony which to a large degree I accept your software does.... (distance, subsets, history etc)
(2) Provide the fuller extent of harmony inter-relationship, of which chord inversions are a SIGNIFICANT part. I am a computer programmer myself and I fully accept your view that there are limits to what can be done here and adding inversions would probably lead to a level of complexity that the software would be unable to handle. However at the same time you are providing a tool, the user interface of which is specifically designed to allow users to click on a large array of chords to find a pattern upon which they wish to build. The technical capabilities which allow that 'mouse clicking' capability through to the triggering of audio chords (normal or inversion) SHOULD be included even if it neccessitates the software going into a SIMPLE 'mode' (or similar) where the conventional harmony navigation has to be switched off.
By reducing the ability to reference chord inversions I think you are neccessarily limiting the range of potential chord interchanges that a user can call up. It would also be extremely frustrating as a potential user to buy such a product only to find out I didn't have the capability to do this......
I want to be absolutely sure I am not misunderstanding you here; can you confirm from your comments that I am NOT supposed to be able to create an inverted chord in the catalog (which your previous reply implies) ?
thanks
Sean
Mi., 28.03.2012 - 22:44 Permalink
....is what I am after in either 'full' HN or SynFire ?
Mi., 28.03.2012 - 23:29 Permalink
By reducing the ability to reference chord inversions I think you are neccessarily limiting the range of potential chord interchanges that a user can call up.
In the palette, yes, due to the limited window size. The progression editor supports inversions.
Provide the fuller extent of harmony inter-relationship, of which chord inversions are a SIGNIFICANT part.
That's voice leading. The palette is mainly about functional harmony. You can manually override the suggested inversions in the progression editor.
You can also add any interval structure to the catalog, including chord inversions. I however doubt this makes sense, because the chord class is no longer matching. The catalog assumes the first pitch is root. Am7 should stay Am7 regardless of its physical representations, or its functional logic will be broken.
To answer your question: No, I don't think adding inversions to the catalog is any useful. It breaks functional harmony. Although you can try for yourself.
Synfire uses the same harmony model. Inversion is not controlled by the progression, however. It's controlled by individual instruments and their figures. All instruments share the same progression.
Do., 29.03.2012 - 00:59 Permalink
Interesting how it works under the hood of SFP and HN2..and it is complicated that is for sure
It seems that liveplaying of chord inversions on the palette is not possible and internal it is the case where needed to get a good voice leading.
Manual you can do it chord inversions, but not live
The idea to experiment with chordinversions in the pallette is attractive, but you can get a better voice leading by using them, but instead of offering a root chord you can offer a inversion, but not in the live pallette
But in the progression editor ( see progressiontab ) of HN2.5 advanced you can choose a menu option view-> "bass" and the bass note of the chord is depicted on the chord rectangle
So it is possible to use chord inversion in your song and experiment with it how it sounds ..with or without chordinversion
Note: chords inversion for triads are not noted as slash chords in the progressioneditor ..example C/E you don't get in the progressioneditor
Look at the slah chord symbol for 7 chords too
So the good news is you can use inversions, but only in the progression editor
note: strange idea that SFP internal a chordinversion uses to get a better voice leading, while you use root chords in the pallette?
Do., 29.03.2012 - 01:40 Permalink
To answer your question: No, I don't think adding inversions to the catalog is any useful. It breaks functional harmony. Although you can try for yourself.
Strange... because as example a root triad chord C maj still stays a triad Cmaj chord when it is used in his first or second inversion ( the third inversion is the original triad again back)
I don't see why inversion breaks a functional harmony ?
Do., 29.03.2012 - 09:29 Permalink
An inverted interval structure in the catalog would not haven the same harmonic function anymore.
Do., 29.03.2012 - 11:06 Permalink
I talk about the harmonic function of the chord as a whole: functional harmony in relation to other chords in a progression and not on interval level and for calculating of the voiceleading it make sense the interval spaces
Example C -F-G or C/E-F-G for a chordprogression is the same functional harmony applied in both chordprogressions. ( Tonica-Subdominant-Dominan t)
Further thinking about the live palette without playing live inversions it is userfriendly!
Is not necessarry to play inversions, because SFP do the job internal..the voice leading and adding auxilary tones or something like that.
Why there is the need in the chordprogression editor in HN2 to bring in manual a chord inversion?
Probably you can get more advanced chord progression than doing this automatically with the live pallette ?
Fr., 20.04.2012 - 03:23 Permalink
I'm confused. I have been trying to get inversions to apply to chords that I have already entered and they do not seem to be doing so. Is this a limitation, a feature, or what?
It sounds like people are able to change the inversions of chords once they have been added to a progression, but nothing happens when I select a chord in a progression and press alt, 1, 2, 3, or 4.
Am I doing something wrong?
Fr., 20.04.2012 - 09:52 Permalink
This is a bug. The number keys are not working in the current release. We will fix it with the next update (soon).