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I want to import a midi file with MSB/LSB/Prog. In device list, I select Tyros 4, then go to import box..I import a 16 channel midi file, I set all instruments to STATIC. By referring to Logic or T4 face panel, I then set each MSB/LSB bank, , by finding MSB/LSB bank (000-64, 120-4 etc). It will display instruments not related to what is in that bank. I go over to instrument section, and select the proper category of instrument. I refer to Tyros 4 face panel to insure I get the right instrument. In SFP, the Instrument section is blank, until I again select the category,
After I have done all this SFP has decided to go and reclassify the all instrument presets by itself from static to , monophonic, bass simple, sustained etc. It shouldn't change after I have already selected it.
After file is imported, most instruments have switched over to shared rack. I then reselect MIDI, which wipes out all information for each instrument previously set up. I select a midi channel, then category. I then am present with list of all banks in Tyros (hundreds of them) I select something like Bank 120 - 004. I then select the instrument, is is whited out, still no instruments to choose from. On the left hand side, I select the instrument again, this time, the instrument name appears, surrounded by a box - finally I see my instrument choices. But since they are name only, and no corresponding #, I must refer to Logic or T4 face panel again, and note the name something like 'S articulation2 Ballad Soprano'. I can then select that in the instrument category.
Since SFP has device list, and gets MSB/LSB/Prog it should recognize the instrument automatically, instead of me doing them one by one.. The point is SFP expects to see some operations with several parameters, done only in one particular sequence, which is not specified (to my knowledge). If you don't use that procedure, you will get the wrong results. If you choose parameters in wrong order, all previously set up information is lost, and you start over.
After I import the MIDI, SFP has switched most of the instruments over shared rack again. It has also switched instrument to dynamic MIDI mode, rather than static. I have to manually set them to MIDI and to the proper channel, which then means resetting each catagory, and patch again. Some times I can't directly address Tyros 4 port 1, it is greyed out, I must select Tyros port 2, then Port 1 becomes available (Tyros 4 port 2 is for external MIDI control, it has no face panel controls to modify MIDI input, they must be included in MIDI file as CC events). Because of the way Tyros treats effects (reverb, chorus, etc). MIDI channels must remain static for proper effect to be on right instrument.
After this long procedure is done, I play the file, sounds fairly close to Logic, except SFP has screwed up some note lengths, and notes overhang (I fixed notelengths in Logic so certain tracks, was strictly monophonic, no note overhangs). Somehow in SFP this information has gotten lost, and there is a moderate amount of notes overhanging, and getting stuck on.
I still have trouble getting SFP to switch an instrument to MIDI, unless, I start with a non related file, containing MIDI instruments previously set up, and use 'Import MIDI file using my private instruments' . When I re=open an SPF file that consisted of external MIDI instruments, SFP has changed a few of the tracks by itself to shared rack..
Fr., 05.10.2012 - 18:14 Permalink
Are you making changes to the arrangement while the import dialog is open? The import dialog is not related to the arrangement. It creates a new arrangement after import finished.
Fr., 05.10.2012 - 18:48 Permalink
No, I am only opening an arrangement first to get SFP to recognize that I want to use static external MIDI ports. When the new import procedure is dones, it shows up as a new arrangement, but again, static MIDI channels are lost, which completely throws off all the MSB/LSB/Prog work I so painstakingly set up. And about half the channels switch over to shared rack. When I switch those channels back to MIDI again, they have all set themselves to MIDI channel 1.
If I try to pick a new device description for one instrument, ALL other instruments are reset back to MIDI 1, all instruments are renamed 'channel 1' and again I have to start back at the beginning, pick a midi channel, category, patch etc.
SFP is definetly not external MIDI hardware friendly. What's the point of device lists, and MSB/LSB banks, if SFP can't recognize and use them in a MIDI file?
My original desire was to start a song, in Logic, (I have some specific parts I want to use), and then use SFP, to create and modify some of the tracks.. It feels like SFP fights me every step of the way.
I also sometimes start a project in Synfire, but this software should be more user friendly towards external MIDI hardware.
Fr., 05.10.2012 - 19:21 Permalink
Pardon this interruption from a still wet behind the ears HN2 newby.
When I read these things, my eyes glaze over ... but, I ask, 'Why one ring to rule them all?'
My DAW, Cubase, is powerful. It easily runs all my midi enabled external hardware as well as, obviously, plugins including VSTi.
It's true, I do not have a 'composing' keyboard, but I have just about all the other tools.
Here's my point: why would I want to complicate my life by creating all these devices to integrate SFP or SFE into my DAW? Why wouldn't I want to simply use its compositional power with a simple GM sound module, refining a song to my heart's delight and then exporting the midi file and slapping it into my DAW where everything already works? Then I can change instrumentation, double instrumentation, chop and paste midi files, use other midi tools for seasoning and start rendering track to audio for mixing?
Go ahead, slap some sense into me!
Prado
Fr., 05.10.2012 - 19:28 Permalink
Hi mark,
Have you tried only importing one track at a time with the option import with eating instrument? That is what Andre had suggested, it might be a pain but sounds like you current workflow is less than ideal. Also, make sure you don't have anything defined in your shared rack that might be associated with the midi devices you are using with the tyros. I've also had issues when a midi device was used by my daw and I tried to load something into synfire that wanted to use the same device.
Just a couple f suggestions. Hope you get things sorted soon, nothing destroys the creative flw like technical problems.
Fr., 05.10.2012 - 20:26 Permalink
I have tried that, it is really tedious. For $1200, the software should be able to import a midi file properly. I get the issue of SFP not wanting to treat file as a MIDI track.
I've been working at it for a while, Imported the 16 track midi file, got it to SFP MIDI channels, and correctly assigned MSB?LSB/PROG files to it by hand. It sounds very close to Logic file, (except I had to chop off articulation notes in octaves 6 and 7 in some instruments, cause T4 uses them for sfx.
If the MSB/LSB/PROG are in the midi file, and SFP has the device listing, it should at least use those to assign a sound, One problem is when you assign a category, SFP wipes out previous data. Either way one track at a time or importing whole MIDI file, is a long and tedious task. I'm beginning to think the effort invested is not worth it, Although once, you start manipulating and modifying the existing MIDI file.. it's worth the sweat.
Fr., 05.10.2012 - 21:01 Permalink
If the MSB/LSB/PROG are in the midi file, and SFP has the device listing, it should at least use those to assign a sound
It does so already. It is designed to do so. I really wonder how it comes that you experience this sound confusion again.
Since you created the original file in Logic, there are probably no sound and device names included with the file. MSB/LSB numbers without any hint to a sound name may not be sufficient for Synfire to match the sound correctly.
Also, if you assign sounds per each track on the import dialog before you start the import, they will be used in the imported arrangement.
Assigning a category does not wipe out anything. I guess you mean assigning a channel. Synfire remembers settings per each channel, so if you switch to another channel, you will see those settings.
Fr., 05.10.2012 - 21:31 Permalink
You 'really wonder how it comes that you experience this sound confusion again....' What does that mean?
The sound confusion never got cleared up for me... I just gave up on SPF for a while. It seems like a constant battle trying to use SFP with external MIDI hardware. I'm honestly trying the best I can
Regarding importing a midi file with MSB/lSB/PRG in event list, SFP is not dealing with it properly. It looks only at the program # then assigns the GM name for that. Since Tyros 4 makes extensive use of MSB/LSB banks, the program # sometimes will not necessarily relate to the original GM # sound. In some cases it does. But SFP always assigns my MSB/LSB/PROG bass patch as an organ.
In Logic's midi file each track has MSB/LSB/PROG and other CC events to define and shape the sound. Whenever I load the Logic file, the resulting music file is exactly the same..
So you are saying I'm supposed to put in a meta tag instrument name on each track. Shouldn't SFP see from the device that is chosen, and know what those MSB/LSB/PROG are for? Then what is the point of the device list, and MSB/LSB/PROG events?
In SFP. I first select Tyros4 as the device, and then import the midi file.. Today I imported a midi file, and SFP would not let me change to a MIDI track.
I did assign instruments on import, but SFP changes them from static MIDI mode to a shared rack and dynamic status, completely useless for me.
I'll be reassigning channels, catagories, sound, in the arrange page, and then I'll get to one channel that's shared, I'll swtich that to MIDI, sometimes it will show MIDI channel 1 as only channel choice, if I select a different device for that channel, it wipes out all the settings of previously defined instruments, and re-assigns each track to MIDI channel 1
Fr., 05.10.2012 - 21:34 Permalink
Hmm.
Can you send us the midi file created by Logic. And a copy of your Tyros4 device file?
Andre should have a look into it.
Sa., 06.10.2012 - 00:46 Permalink
Yes, here they are, I'm sorry if I lost my temper, perhaps it's because I'm old and don't have a lot of full functioning brain cells left. Here is Logic file, Logic's exported midi file (sounds a bit wrong cause of GM patches), a short mp3 to hear the overhangs, and the device list Andrew made for me a while ago.
Thanx..
Mark
3679_note_overhang.mp3
Sa., 06.10.2012 - 01:07 Permalink
Well, Mark loves his Tyros and Logic.
He got the advice from Andre to stay with Synfire Pro alone .. and do his compositional work there for say 95 % and finish the song in Logic by using drones.
Yes, General Midi soundmodule.. good to start with.
Can Tyros easily used as a hardware GM soundmodule ? ..there is device description for a GM soundmodule..can this be used for Tyros?
Importing midi files in Synfire pro when Tyros can be acting as a GM soundmodule solves all problems..
Sa., 06.10.2012 - 01:21 Permalink
I'm not going to slap you Prado. But with tools like Cubase, Logic, Photoshop etc, There are usually more than one way to acccomplish something. Cause I'm using Logic with hardware MIDI, the clones won't work. Most of the time I start in Logic using Tyros 4 arranger kbd in Logic. I manipulate, play and edit midi file to my liking., because I have very specific things I want to do.
I'm am not versed enough in SFP to yield the kind of results that Andrew might. For instance I might want a certain note some where that SFP will not accomodate, cause it breaks it's AI rules.. I know I can relax interpretation, or cut down size of chord progressions to force that note into scale, but the theory of going to other modularities, was never fully comprehended and forgotten long ago after so many years, of doing just straight pop.
Different people are going to use the software differently. Of course the main point, one must accept the software or what ever it is at 'face value'. You can't put spots on a leopard. Andre's intention was to have this function work, and it should, but I am not seeing that result.
Also once people become used to EWQS, Garritan, hardware with elegant articulations built in, GM doesn't cut it.. In some cases you need to hear the sounds that are going to be used.. Thanks, one of Apple's recent updates, GM has become useless. It is 30 times softer than before, often completely drownd out by circuit noise.. The DLS device is the opposite, it way to loud totally distorts and is drownd in reveb, making it equally unsuitable for me to use..
Also when you're auditioning library phrases it's nice to hear them with the final sound. The older I get, the more I realize it is about the tonality of the different instruments, the balance of harmonics present and EQ which of each instrument. That is why orchestra's have been around for hundreds of years. These instruments blend well together pretty much with whatever notes you through at them. I like using a Tyros cause Yamaha has always been excellent in the act of combining their insruments, and making a homogenous sound.. Many synths and software can sound amazing and really cut through but to reshape them to work with other instruments takes time and patience to learn, (I'm not talking sawtooth techno here). Six years ago, I would have totally balked at the idea of using an english horn over a french horn, or what all those latin/Italian words at the beginning of string sounds meant.. Now I have a working knowledge of them and can call up at will.
The reality is, I could never take a modified Chick Corea jazz solo and meld it into my pop tune.. That music theory is above me, and would take a very long time by trial and error to accomodate.. SFP did it in one pop. and it certainly sounded genious.. There are so many aspects of music, one can become a jack of all trades, but master of one.. We must find the area in which we can accomplish what is possible, without expending exhorbitant amounts of time learning a piece of software.
Because of SPF complexity and uncharted way of dealing with music, I have spent a very significant amount of time dealing with SFP. Somethings I get to work, others are frustration. I've been using Logic for over twenty years, while it certainly has a lot of tricks up it sleeve (transfomation functions), it can't come close to what SFP can do in two steps.
Andre has been generous in his attitude to accomodate all the problems or issues which people present. Like he said he created it primarily to satisfy his own needs and desires. Yet he braves the frightening word of C+ (or what ever code generator he usess) to turn ideas into workable code..
And at the same token, it makes SFP a more valueable product, cause it has become more flexable.
Make music and go in peace..
Sa., 06.10.2012 - 02:31 Permalink
'm not going to slap you Prado.
Oh, c'mon. Hurt me! Hurt me! I like it.
I guess it's 'different strokes.' Having spent a lot of time with various midi programs, midi VSTi plugins and my DAW, I find that I am already aware of so many different midi manipulations I can do in Cubase that do not appear to be available in SFP, that I can not conceive of not polishing off a midi file within in Cubase.
As far as 'tonalities' go I agree ... but I find it so easy to simply pull up a patch script in Cubase, loop a passage and try out different sounds that I can see no reason to go further.
I'm mostly all hardware with banks of Emu, Ensoniq and Roland modules. Cubase automatically recalls the last used patch ... what cold be easier?
As far as GM goes, yes I can imagine a particular piano sound when I hear a midi file with patch 01, 02 or 03 playing. But it still is going to be a piano.
I absolutely love the simplicity of working with GM for composing.
Which is why I probably fail to see all the advantage of piping all my instruments through SFP devices. I did ask a similar question on the forum about this issue, and Andre or Supertonic responded. But in the end the only thing I could take away was that you could retain the sound assignments of the instruments as heard in SFP. I guess so that you could recall the project and reprint the audio at some future time.
But I don't see that much different than having tweaked a midi file in Cubase and saved the project for future revision. Both the HN2 or SFP/E file is still going to be there and the Cubase project is going to be there for posperity. Reprinting is reprinting.
I'd also add that for a 'live' setup, this might be an entirely different consideration.
Anyway, I am truly not trying to be disagreeable ... just curious.
And I whole heartedly agree that if you buy something, it is supposed to work as advertised.
Best of luck.
Prado
Sa., 06.10.2012 - 08:14 Permalink
(cough, cough ...) let's focus on a solution for the issue Mark has.
Thanks for the midi file. Despite countless "zero length notes", the file imports fine here. Logic seems to have its own opinion about how to write a midi file. I'll see if I could do a hack to deal with this.
To summarize: The only reason why your particular workflow is a challenge with Synfire, is because you want individual Tyros patches permanently tied to a fixed midi channel that you have decided in advance. This is why the much more convenient automatic sound assignment does not work for you. A shared device would assign channels as needed, depending on which arrangements you currently have open. The huge advantage being that you can open and play any number of arrangements at any time.
If you want fixed channels for each individual arrangement, you need to setup these before doing the import:
- Be sure no shared Tyros 4 device is currently connected to any port. This would conflict with the imported arrangement.
- In a new arrangement, set the instrument to type "MIDI"
- From the "Device Description" options menu, pick "Insert Device Description" and select the Tyros 4. This inserts a copy of it into the arrangement.
Now add all your instruments that you have in the midi file:
- Instrument >> New Instrument With Same Sound
- Channel: Select the fixed channel you want.
- Press Pick Sound/Template and select the sound.
If the indicator still does not turn green, you may need to set a category. Repeat these steps for each track in the file.
Now do File >> Import >> Standard MIDI File (Using My Private Sounds). On the import dialog that opens, all tracks should already be set to the sounds using the channels you setup before.
Please try if that works for you.
Sa., 06.10.2012 - 13:07 Permalink
Cause I'm using Logic with hardware MIDI, the clones won't work.
Hi mark
Was this not a strong point of Synfire the possiblity to work with drones to finish your song in your DAW?
Synfire brings his private Vsti to the DAW ..where you can continue to finish the arrangement.
In your case than you connect your Tyros in Logic and export the Synfire midi to Logic , than you can use the same workflow as for the drones .. compose in Synfire and finish in Logic
Or do i miss something?
Sa., 06.10.2012 - 13:22 Permalink
Janamdo,
If you had been following mark's posts in the ast you would realise that there are a couple of things that make his workflow difficult. One is that logic can't host plugins that generate midi, 2 he uses hardware devices controlled through midi, 3 he is very comfortable with working in logic. A combination of those 3 things means he is constantly trying to import and export bidirectional ly between logic and synfire.
It might seem strange to us, but apart from the issues he describes above, it's a workflow that works for him, you only have to listen to his music to realise that.
Sa., 06.10.2012 - 15:17 Permalink
I must admit there was a bug in MSB/LSB detection on import. Just fixed it for the next update. :oops:
Mark, your brain cells are still fine.
The steps explained above should help until the update is ready. I've now added a setting to the import dialog that allows for copying a device to the imported arrangement and retaining the channels of all tracks. This makes your entire import adventure a single-click matter.
Also fixed those zero-length notes from Logic. They are really in the file (!), but seem to be valid, so I exrtended them to 1 clock tick length.
I hope you love what you see.
Sa., 06.10.2012 - 19:11 Permalink
Wow T H A N X........ I'll check out your procedure in a day or two...