Questions about Containers

Which is the target to pack a container? move its content to leave it empty,why? empty for what?

The root container is the only container, which you can't move. So, if you want to have your recorded or imported phrases at a different place in your arrangement, you need to get them out of the root container. That's what the Pack command is for. You can leave the root container entirely empty or use it for global settings, such as volume or Pan. But that's just a suggestion, of course you can still use the root container for everything you want.

2*- In the menu Container there are two features i dont know how they work :

Keep Child Containers in a Row and Render.

The purpose of Keep container in a row is to avoid gaps between the containers. It makes the containers to behave just like the sections of Harmony Navigator.

The Render command just recalculates your music. Usually you won't need that command (I actually never used it) since the rendering is also executed automatically when you press the Play button. I suspect the command dates from ancient times when computers were weak and separate rendering still made sense. 

3*- The toolbar of snap to only affects to the content (notes,parameters) that are inside of the instruments (tracks) of the instrument sheets? because i select a container and move it with the left and rigth arrows of the keyboard of the computer and the container always move in 4 (snap) step.if i select 8 in the toolbar double click and move the container and move in 4,the containers dont follow the toolbar snap?

This was already discussed in an earlier thread (https://users.cognitone.com/content/moving-container)

Here is, what Andre has replied:

Andre wrote:

The tool grid is not used for container movement. It has a fixed 1/4 resolution. Using the keyboard, you can use ARROW or SHIFT + ARROW to move with 1/1 or 1/4. Or use the inspector's Container tab for manual entry.

The issue is, the tool grid is used for vector editing at fine resolutions a lot. If the containers were moved using these fine steps, the user would not notice if they land 1/32 off and the results would be very confusing.

Juergen, can you please make a short gif of how to create a song structure with synfire. For the life of me I cannot make an intro, verse and chorus and repeat this sections out of a root container that has the whole melody in it.

I tried to follow your directions to no avail. This is frustrating.

I can create the containers verse and chorus. That is it. The second chorus does not play all the instruments like the first one? 

I have original melody and all instruments in root container. I pack the root container and place the instruments that I want in subcontainers...works for verse and chorus and intro. But after the intro 4 bars. Verse stars playing on bar 5. is supposed to start on 1 since is a subcontainer. I cannot copy chorus 1. I do not know if I making sense anymore.

Thanks to anybody who can or will help.

Cannot follow this.. why not give your arrangement file here
What is your startsituation--> how is the rootcontainer filled ?

Hi

Start (open) with a new arrangement and add for example 3 containers vertical on top of the rootcontainer for say 5 measures long

Than choose : keep Child contaners in a row --> what do you see than ?

Hi eduaro:

If you want all sections to play the same phrases, keep the phrases them in the root container (do not use "Pack"). Then add an empty container for each section:

                   Intro, Verse, Chorus, Verse 2, Chorus 2, etc.

Make an Alias for a section that you want to repeat later. Chorus 2 could be an alias of Chorus, for example. If you want the sections to always stay in a row without gaps or overlaps, check "Keep Child Containers in a Row" for their parent container (root in this example).

In each container, you can now put a different chord progression, different phrases, or change anything you want to be different from the root.

Thank you all for helping. 

The frustration comes when instead of copying phrases, I notice I am cutting. I am also ending up with a lot of repetitive tracks after I copy and paste containers using the option create or skip instruments. 

The melody has only complete verses and chorus. Out of this structure I get the rest of the sections, so sometimes I have to copy not just phrases but instruments too.

I will give a try one more time.Thanks Supertonic for the graphic organizer.

There are different ways to build up a song arrangement. I have enclosed two gifs which lead to the same result.

First Version: Using the Pack command

1. Pack root container

2. Adjust the size of the newly created container

3. Create duplicates of the container with the Edit >> Duplicate command

4. Drag the containers to the desired positions and rename it

5. Select the root container and execute the Automatic Sectioning command to bring the song section containers in a row without gaps.

Maybe this method don't work at Synfire Express (because it needs three hierachical levels at the arrangement view and you have only two, but I can't test that since I am on SF Pro). Then you can use this method (should work on SFE, but as I said I can't test it):

1. Create  a new container below the root container 

2. Select the new container and  execute Container >> Make Snapshot

3. Drag the new container to the desired position and rename it.

4. Repeat this procedure until you have the desired number of containers.

5. Select the root container and execute Automatic Sectioning.

With each of the methods I describe above you will get a number of containers which contain the phrases which were originally at the root container. Then you can start to modify the phrases.

The frustration comes when instead of copying phrases, I notice I am cutting. 

You must hold down the CTRL key while dragging phrases to copy them. Otherwise they will be moved (i.e. deleted at their original position).

Thanks Juergen for the very detailed comparison.

I was able to do a verse and chorus out of the root container.

When I did make an alias did not work unless I snapshoted the newly created verse and chorus.

The alias for verse did not work. It had drums in it! The verses are not to have drums. They do not have it in the root container. The instrument is not supposed to play. The harmony is also different for the aliases.

Is this nightmarish or what?

Juergen I am about to try the methods you explained in the gifs. My previous reply was prior to experimentation with your gifs.

I was able to replicate method 1 with partial success. The chorus container had no sounds in it.

See the jpg. Puzzling. Thanks guys.

Thanks so much Juergen!

Method 2 was the one that did it. I guess I was missing one step. Once the process is understood, then replication is not a problem. I thank you for your very illustrative methods.

Happy composing!

Eduardo

:thumbsup:

Is there a difference  between a 'Duplicate' and an 'Alias?'

And, if so, what?

Prado

when you change something in the source/master container    this  changes will affects  all alias containers 
so Aliases  actually  not a copy or duplicate ..they are just ghosts of source containers.
when you copy or duplicate a container you can freely edit that copies without worrying about  the broke original one.

I am not sure why but the alias that I create does not has everything as the original. Deleting the alias also deletes the original container?

Duplicating containers is a bit safer for me. The whole thing is just too new for me. 

Graag gedaan  man..!

Janamdo bedankt voor je hulp !!!

Het is een taaie materie die containers en  er ontbreekt een goede video over.

It is a tough matter the containers, but keep on working on it !
Basis is the rootcontainer , is there already a song with a songstructure or you must construct one ?

when you change something in the source/master container    this  changes will affects  all alias containers 
so Aliases  actually  not a copy or duplicate ..they are just ghosts of source containers.
when you copy or duplicate a container you can freely edit that copies without worrying about  the broke original one.

Perfect! Got it. Thank you very much.

@Juegen ... or anyone else who can explain :)

Something I don't understand (well ... probably a few things) fromthe gifs you made.

If the new arrangement ... root container ... is empty, why do you need to make 'snap shot?'

If you have imported a midi file into the root container, does the 'snap shot' exactly grab the section the portion of the original file that is at the same time ruler positions as the new container? So if I had a new container at measure 17 to 25 and made a 'snap shot.' it would contain those same measures from the origina imported midi file in the root container. Yes?

And now if I moved my new container with the measures 17 to 25 somewhere else on the ruler, it would bring those measures to a new position without affecting the original midi file in the root (or any higher) container. Yes?

If the new arrangement ... root container ... is empty, why do you need to make 'snap shot?'

The root container was not empty at the gif's, I had drawn a test phrase there. It just had the name "new arrangement" because I didn't change it.

If you have imported a midi file into the root container, does the 'snap shot' exactly grab the section the portion of the original file that is at the same time ruler positions as the new container? So if I had a new container at measure 17 to 25 and made a 'snap shot.' it would contain those same measures from the origina imported midi file in the root container. Yes?

Exactly that.

And now if I moved my new container with the measures 17 to 25 somewhere else on the ruler, it would bring those measures to a new position without affecting the original midi file in the root (or any higher) container. Yes?

Yes, exactly.

BTW: You can snapshot whole containers or single parameters. For example you can snapshot just one parameter of a single instrument into a new container and then move around with this new container in the arrangement and see how this parameter affects the instrument at different places. This is a core feature of Synfire and can doany magic things.

Juergen, You're a Prince!

This is truly the most exciting music program ever!

BTW What program do you use to do all your GIFs? That is something I'd also like to learn how to do.

Prado

BTW What program do you use to do all your GIFs? That is something I'd also like to learn how to do.

The program is LICEcap: 

(http://www.cockos.com/licecap/)

It's free and very easy to use. A thanks to our valued friend soundcase, who brought me to this tool.

Why i should not use pack?.

I am curiuos to this answer, because i don't understand this

If you want all sections to play the same phrases, keep the phrases them in the root container (do not use "Pack").

Has someone a idea for this ?

Yes, very infromative Juergen,, thanx...