Smooth scalewise movement

If you want to get the symbols directly mapped to the scale you need to bypass the influence of the Parameter "Interpretation". I have tried to describe these relations a little more in detail in the video at the WIKI page "Symbol Types":

(https://users.cognitone.com/content/symbol-types)

After this explanation of yours Juergen..  i do now know what your goal was for this video..ok 

This tutorial is excellent! How did I miss this?

Does the 'social subscription' to the forum also notify when something new is posted to the WIKI?

Thanks, Juergen

Check out your user profile settings. You can subscribe to any content type, even if you never posted there.

I hope that the effect of that video in the Wiki is not that you all now turn off the 'Interpretation' parameter to get directly mapped symbols. That's not the intention.

The Interpretation parameter is the artificial intelligence part of Synfire and has some really amazing abilities. Not only that it knows all the relevant voice leading rules. It ensures through intelligent, context sensitive adjustments of the note pitches that the interplay between the phrases sounds like music.  For example I had a case where it has raised the pitch of the bass line in a particular area a little, presumably because the distance to the upper parts has become too large. Such things it does. But the result is, of course, that the output from Synfire may differ significantly from the graphic appearance of the entered figures.

Hi Proto

Yes i am puzzling about this too..

Strange, because i did some composing in C major scale and all notes were on the right pitch with the scaleboard

I suppose you want make a melody in D minor ( natural )?   
Seems to me that from D minor natural .. d-e-f  is one step between d and e and a 1/2 step  so the scaleboard must come up with a e .. but comes with a f

There is something under the hood of Synfire what we not are aware of.

But the question remains ..how do we write a arrrangment in a particulair scale ?
( perhaps it is documented in the manual )

Please don't worry!

It just makes everything clearer ... and it suggests interesting possibilities such as taking a melody line and changing it to vertical scale across several changing harmonies.

Hi Prado

It is not clear why i must not worry.. i want to write some melodies with different scales to name something
I don't understand your point here ?

janamdo wrote: But the question remains ..how do we write a arrrangment in a particulair scale ?
( perhaps it is documented in the manual )

I don't really understand your question. Could you give an example of what you mean by 'scale' and  how you intend to use it to write an arrangement as opposed to 'key?'

My thinking is that you select a key (forgetting for the moment about possible modulatio) and then choose the harmonic appropriate chords and use the vertical symbols as controlled by the chord at any point in the arrangment. This will play the 'scale' of that chord instead of that of the root key. You should then be able to access most scales you would probably want to use.

In the event that at some point you wanted something chromatic you could just change that note (or notes) to the static scale symbol.

Is something like this what you mean?

Jan ... I'm sorry, I was responding to Juergen, not you. I responded to you after!

Ok  Prado , but you wrote janamdo ( that 's me ;) )

It is a little bit (embarrassing) unreal to get the basic of writing music in different scales clear for myself in Synfire.

Feels me like a fool ..haha..and that for the new year already.. haha

Composing in different scales a melody is a normal musical question.. agree?

Key and scale it is interchangeable ..they are the same notions ( for me )

"The most important property of a horizontal scale is that is always begins with the root of the ( global ) key"(manual)

Example : I construct a melody in 4 keys ..what is the global key ? .. the key what is most active? 

I'll try again. I wonder if you are mixing up keys and chords?

If I use the key of C major and then have Dm(and 7), Em, F, G, G7, Am(and 7) and Bdim chords I am only using (or mainly using) notes in the scale of C major to build those chords. A melody using the C major scale should work under any of them ... as well as some scale variations particular to any specific one of these chords (not including  for this point Cmajor) because they will share notes with other keys.

So when you say you construct a melody in 4 keys, what do you mean? Are the keys ones that have relationships to each other or are you trying to modulate to 4 different key-tonal centers.

Tell me specifically an example of the 4 keys and 4 scales you mean. That would make it clear.

I can not recommend to anyone highly enough the book 'How Music Really Works' by Wayne Chase. You can read the first 6 chapters online if you google the website. Chapter 6 is exactly about how keys and scales relate to each other.

If you have formal music theory background you will probably not learn too much. But if you don't, this is the most amazing book to teach you.

Janmado wrote: Composing in different scales a melody is a normal musical question.. agree?

Key and scale it is interchangeable ..they are the same notions ( for me )

Not for me. It would depend if the purpose is to modulate to a new key or the purspose is to emphasize one of the harmonic relatives of the main key of the song.

A key for me means a tonal center where the root note of the same name is emphasized. Changing a chord is not the same as changing a key. The notes in Cmajor and in A natural minor (Aeolian) are the same notes and same intervals between those notes. They just have a different 'do' that leads to different melodic possibilities.

Let's keep it simple,  and go back to the first post of @proto..and try to answer also his question

Example arrangment for 6 instruments

To construct a arrangement consisting of a multiple scales :

- A Minor pentatonic scale

- C Lydian scale

- C whole tone scale

Probably there is no harmony involved ?.. i must study this example further how it is build up..but a fact is it uses 3 scales

- A Minor pentatonic scale

 

This is the key of A Minor using the A minor pentatonic scale. It would also work in its relative major, which is C major or probably its parallel of A major.

- C Lydian scale

 

C Lydian, a 'church' mode, is from a harmonic view in the key of G major and it's relative minor and parallel minor.

- C whole tone scale

 

Got me! I must assume it is in the key of C ... though some only some of the diatonic chords would probably be harmonic.

To me, in harmonic Western Music, there are only 24 keys, the majors and minors in the 12 semitones. There are 'modes' and other types of music, but I don't consider them keys.

My idea is that you look for scales that work under any particular chord that fits your progression.

In your example, it should be relatively easy to find a progression in C major that could use your scales. When the chord is Amin use the pentatonic minor and when it is G, the dominant, use your C Lydian.

In this arrangment there are no block chords involved , but broken chords

This is the key of A Minor using the A minor pentatonic scale. It would also work in its relative major, which is C major or probably its parallel of A major.

You can reduce the A minor pentatonic scale back to the Cmajor scale ( because the 4 th and 7 th note is erased )

Is it handier to use the palette for this and let this show the possible chords ( belonging to the A minor pentatonic scale )

It is a fact that have here a arrangement based on 4 scales with broken chords..so why not input these notes with the scaleboard and setting the first 8 bars in the  A minor pentatonic scale ?

The melody of this arrangment in 4 scales let me hear different moods, based on the scales  and not based on chords all alone  

i am messin around with the scales.. i like to add a  A minor pentatonic scale to the palette and that the palette shows what chords belong to this scale.
After one year of using the palette i still get no grip on it, because for example default you can not see what chords belonging to a key ( example: what triads are build on the major scale )--> but there is a key combination :  <CTRL> + choose the scale in the circle of fifth --> only it is not working with the current vesion of SFP.. i send a error report.
Problem is the reference scale and the derived scales from this ...how to assemble a scale set ? ( or is there a easy way to know what scales are derived form say the major scale-> yes look at the mutual notes   

A minor pentatonic scale has omitted the 4th and 7th note from the Cmajor scale..
In the palette editor you can choose the A minor pentatonic scale as it is a vertical scale ( for improvising as i understand) but you can from there( as it seems) add this vertical scale from there to the horizontal scale set and build up your own scale set
In my case i must make a scale set with as reference scale  C major and add 4  other derived scales from it to this scale set  ( are the 4 derived scales derived fronm the reference scale ? )
I must try this out and hope Cognitone can fix the palette ( maybe ? ) , because it it is not possible to see what chords belong to a particulair scale.

In my case of the arrangemenr of the broken ( arpeggio ) chords i can give now a chordtype in th eprogression idfthe palette shows the right scale and chords

I am still puzzzling how to get A minor pentatonic scale as melody and input these notes with the scale board ??     

Double-click the desired scale in the Catalog and you will get a palette with chords that fit in that scale.Alternatively, you can drag & drop scales to a palette window and delete those you don't want from the palette.

You can then change the root via the "Edit" menu. Every possible progression you could build using these chords will be resticted to the scale.

If you do not want any chords and "just the scale", make your progression a single chord only that uses this scale and turn off voice leading (use the weakest possible preset from the list in Interpretation parameter, IIRC it is "Bypass" or something).

The blue symbols will give you every step of that scale then.

Fantastic!

Is this another 'undocumented pearl,' or did I miss it in the manual?

Thanks

Thanks ..very helpful your post. 

i am  now trying to figure it out and take the example from @ Proto

- Should be very helpful when Synfire come up with the used notes for a horizontal scale ( because otherwise i must deduce it ) 

Note: under the circle of fifth infobox ..the notes of the scale can be written

I made a palette from natural-minor horizontal scale and choose D as root noot ..to get the D.natural-minor scale and vertical scale is D-aeolian as exercise , but easier is using in the circle of fifth the D natural minor scale

I think i must bypass the voice leading than, because i get a f note --. indeed i now get a  d-note !..now i am able to construct melodies who consist of different scales

Perhaps idea to connect the scaleboard with the live chords ? ..it is very handy to get the live progression chords key on the scaleboard keys..where you than can bring them in the phrase editor .. seems to me a awesome feature!!

It seems that Minimal voice leading (off + weak) and bypass gives the right note .

The category of arrangement : only songsections with broken chords + different scale melodies is not included in the preset interpretation: --> better is to give a option for : scale melodies + broken chords as one of the possible arrangments to make in Synfire ?

Is this another 'undocumented pearl,' or did I miss it in the manual?

Chapter Palette Programming >> Alternative Palettes (Page 150)  ;-)

But  making a palette in a particular choosen key is not a undocumented  pearl ofcourse ... although it is possible.

The pearl is here that you must bypass the voiceleading ? 

i make the same scale

to the phrase editor - open scale key board and press 0, which gives me a d note, alls fine and good.

but now if i press 1 on scale keyboard it gives me f note ? why not e?

the two black notes next to 0 on scale keyboard give me f notes as well

It has to do with the voiceleading of the chords --> i bypassed the voiceleading and now i get the  e- note

I am battling with this for some days about how to get a right input from a text example arrangement in a serie of lessons.

As soon the voiceleading is on, than you get this problem that you cannot use the scaleboard for inputting notes in a D minor scale.. and how about other scales?