Posted
I like to have in Synfire Express the same instrument order as in a DAW arrangement
How to achieve this ?
Further i like to have a nestinglevel of 2 for the containers in Synfire Express..on this way i can get a desired instrument order
Yes i know i loose the unique arrangement features of Synfire to use a nested containers with in this a container inside with nestinglevel 1, but probably there is something left off this functionality.
This second questions has to do with the first question :about instrument order
Mo., 10.06.2013 - 20:26 Permalink
Hi Jan ...
This is another advantage of using virtual midi cables I am always championing. It solves this problem easily. If I place the SFE instrument on a fixed midi channel I can then setup midi tracks in the same order in my DAW using Channel 1 for the first instrument in SFE and first midi track in the DAW, etc., etc.
Prado
Mo., 10.06.2013 - 21:16 Permalink
Hi Prado,
Thanks for pointing me again on to this possible setup with Cubase.
I am looking alone to Synfire and his containers..Synfire Express has the habit to collect the containers who are starting at the begin of the arrangement to the top of the arrangementscreen
So you cannot get the right instrument order in Synfire Express itself what i like, because the container logic prevents this
Only with a nested container i can get a instrument order i like, but than i loose one nestinglevel for this.
I must buildup the same arrangement structure in Synfire like in Cubase...
Mo., 10.06.2013 - 21:22 Permalink
Containers represent sections, themes or parts of a composition, each which can consist of phrases for many instruments.
You could use one phrase per container, like a "track", but this is only useful for simple arrangements.
Cubase is a DAW that does not know the concept of containers. Its tracks are flat and linear. Motifs cannot be grouped to form themes, sections and similar. And they can not be moved around freely.
You can reorder instruments the same way as Cubase tracks. However, inside the containers, not outside.
Mo., 10.06.2013 - 21:49 Permalink
You can reorder instruments the same way as Cubase tracks. However, inside the containers, not outside.
Inside a container i can use any instrumentorder i like ... but it costs me one nestinglevel.
Chancing the existing container logic is not possible.. is it not possible to fix a container on a track ?
So a nestinglevel of 2 ...for a nested container to get the desired instrument order and a nestinglevel for this nested container..like it is in a default Synfire Express.
Di., 11.06.2013 - 09:14 Permalink
Hi Blacksun,
Trivial setups are not the problem i think.
see https://users.cognitone.com/content/will-type-arrangement-structure-possible-synfire-express and especially the gif video from Juergen..a old idea
A soloution for this would be to upgrade to Synfire Pro or add a nestinglevel 2 to Synfire Express
Than it is experimenting for me how this work out with for all tracks in Synfire to use a nested container
Do a nested container hinder the arrangementhandling of container? .. yes? ..what are the limitations ?
Mi., 12.06.2013 - 02:36 Permalink
I've never seen a daw that had containers, the nearest is ableton clip view but then its on its side.
Just create one container, the root, put all the instruments in there in the order you have in the daw, hey presto, exactly the view you have in the daw!
Ok I agree you loose a lot of the flexibility this way but it woul be easy to continerise it afterwards by marking the container spans and snapshots.
Mi., 12.06.2013 - 08:19 Permalink
The idea of a container is to have units of musical expression for multiple instruments that can be placed in different surroundings and generate similar recognizable themes and variations. The container is an active compositional device, not only a means for grouping data.
A DAW is just a static sheet of data, played from left to right. You can not use containers like DAW tracks, because they are completely different.
Mi., 12.06.2013 - 13:08 Permalink
Yes, i am beware of the inner working of Synfire opposite a DAW.
I only want to have the same instrument order with the containers on the tracks as a DAW, this has nothing to do with a actual DAW
Synfire (container behaviour )is grouping those containers who are starting at the begin of a arrangement to the top of the arrangement..on this way it chances the order of the instruments
I like to preserve the same order of instruments in Synfire like the DAW arrangement..that's all
Than there is a one to one connection with Synfire and DAW arrangements..and ideal to follow tutorials and other compositional facts.
Mi., 12.06.2013 - 13:29 Permalink
I understand your desire to keep instruments in the same order as DAW.. I often move the instruments order so it it easier to keep track of things.. (yes we all know the difference between 'containers', daws, SFP).
Irregardless of phrases and containers, Synfire still uses 'instruments'. When you're trying to figure out why Synfire is not playing your grand piano riffs, it is easier to have some sense of order, to track down the problem..
Mi., 12.06.2013 - 13:54 Permalink
I understand your desire to keep instruments in the same order as DAW..
I like to follow only the order of a DAW composition in Synfire when i do want something with the DAW arrangement in Synfire
For a other case it sometimes no problem the order of instrumenttation in Synfire.
But come on... in general it is a shortcoming of Synfire that i cannot arrange the instruments in the order i like ( when you think further on this ..it is ridiculous.)
In that way is a DAW better than Synfire..and to praise all the time the compositional strength of Synfire is not appropiate.
Mi., 12.06.2013 - 15:53 Permalink
Janamdo I'm guessing you are creating a container for each instrument in your daw? I ask this as I'm sure you can drag the instruments into any order, I've done ths by mistake before.
Given you have synfire express using a container for each daw track mst really limit you. Can't you for the purposes of recreating your daw setup, just use one container? Then you can move the instruments into the order you want, don't have to worry about parameters from different containers over ruling what's in the container you are examining. This way you can more easily translate between daw and synfire.
Mi., 12.06.2013 - 16:52 Permalink
Thanks
You mean use one container under the rootcontainer and nesting the tracks in this container?
If this limits not the container composing handling, than it could be possible..yes!..only there is some drawback of this than..i am losing a nestinglevel for the nested container in Synfire Express.
That is also a bad situation.
note: Juergen has for his example for every track a container and the instrument nested in this container
For this situation there it seems difficult to have a direct interaction between the instrumentcontainers.
( i like to reposition them to hear a new soundcombination .. )
I must try out this setup, but loosing a nestinglevel is a disaster ..so i can not have a desired instrument order..i am loosing to much functionality..a big shortcoming of Synfire Express seems to me.
Mi., 12.06.2013 - 18:49 Permalink
Can't you for the purposes of recreating your daw setup, just use one container?
I don't exactly what you are meaning ?
I just test it out with one container and 5 nested container within this container and the same ordering problem occurwith the containers who are starting at the beginning of the arrangement
So it seems to be only possible setup like juergen did ( what i aspect from him because he is going for the best solution )
Depressing this...me not to be able to have a own order of instruments in Synfire Express..
Do., 13.06.2013 - 02:24 Permalink
Sorry janamdo I think we are both missing what the other means. I mean only the root container. That equates to the song in the daw. Then in that container add an instrument for each daw track, in the order they are in the daw. Then you have recreated the structure and order of the daw.
Once you have understood it, amended it etc, you can create child containers to either break the song into things like intro, verse, chits,bridge,etc. you can do this by marking the span of time for the container and use th menu to add a container. Snapshot any instruments you want in the new container. Then you can easily use the flexible nature of synfire to change chord progressions in th new container, drag them around horizontally or change priority by dragging them vertically.
Do., 13.06.2013 - 09:59 Permalink
Hi Blacksun
I am still puzzling about this..
Getting the right instrument order in a rootcontainer is no problem, but now from this i do want rebuild DAW parts
structure in Synfire Express as basis for a new arrangment.
I am not looking on intro,verse ..level ...but on parts level..the idea is to construct a DAW part structure in Synfire
Example ( say 16 bar arrangement ) : track 1 : container from 1 to 16 , track 2 : container from 5 to 7 , track 3 : container from 1 to 16, track 4 : container from 1 to 2 , and so on
If i could build up the desired partsstructure from the rootcontainer and fill this with a instrument i like ?
In general... building up a random parts structure i like in Synfire seems to be not possible
Can you rebuild any parts structure from Ableton into Synfire ?
I don't like this..it restricts my creative freedom
Do., 13.06.2013 - 13:21 Permalink
"Big Brother" Synfire dictates that containers who have the same greatest length opposite the other smaller containers in the arrangement are positioned (grouped also) at the top of the arrangement as they start at the begin of the arrangment ( as i see this correct? )
Than only for those containers who are starting at the beginning--> they must be placeable on every track i choose.
On this way i can position the containers who are starting at the begin of the arrangement on every track i like
Can this be toggled off ..:hello: