Posted
This is a general post to Synfire.com (Previously known as Cognitone...
Your insistence on General Midi which no one really uses there days apart from Karioke bars maybe is beyond belief.
As the world moves on through Windows 7 on Pc or OSX10/Leopard on a Mac and 64 bit plugins, where do you fit into this scheme?
What will your customers gain other than a load of headwork trying to make it all work? Not a lot we imagine!
There are so very few GM plugins available these days , it's really not fair to promote it in that manner, however, there is a reasonably authentic GM plugin for VST hosts which is worth checking out, you can find a free trial of it here: (http://www.sonivoxmi.com/ProductDetail.asp?Item=SoundStage)
The only problem though, is still the horrendous setting up, at least if you were paired off with a company that does provide GM plugins of some quality, such a problem should easily be resolved.
Maybe if Cognitone or " Synfire.com" as they seem to be preferred to be known as, should maybe talk to SONiVOX and see if they can't bundle the both of them together in a coherent package that should just work out of the box and would be just ready to rock (so to speak)
Seems like a good idea to us, but what will you do? go back to the foundations to lay a rock solid base or just jump onto the roof of Synfire?
We know what we would do, as many as many others who feel a little let down by parting with the cash for something that doesn't work properly for you....
The whole GM setup on such an abstract experimental stage in this day and age is a sure looser.
Just our thoughts of course. What do others think or want from this package if they buy it?
Cognitone should speak to sonivox , work together and relasae a fully prepaired bundle with no bugs!
Get the foundations right and rock solid, the you can move onto the supporting walls with a roof called Synefire.
Mo., 03.01.2011 - 13:13 Permalink
There is no need to challenge us. We're moving in that direction anyway ;-)
Well, first off I should note that Cognitone still is and always will stay Cognitone (www.cognitone.com) and that this website is just a user forum and content sharing platform run by Cognitone. We have no ambitions to rebrand anything.
I absolutely agree that the current MIDI-based setup is not well suited for a DAW centric minimalist workflow (i.e. "chording"). It looks much different from the perspective of Synfire users who compose comprehensive musical works for orchestra or a large number of other traditional instruments, where, in that situation, the extra effort of setting up an orchestral library once outweighs the huge benefits that Synfire has to offer. It is still far from ideal, though.
Requiring the same amount of setup for a minimalist synth-bass-bleeps electronic project, just to name an example, admittedly is disproportional. We put more plug-and-play friendly VST/AU support on top of our agenda already. It is of great interest for all types of users.
I doubt it would make sense to bundle HN with a GM synth. The MIDI ports and loopback driver setup would still remain and we'd rather like to get rid of this altogether. For a quick setup-free preview, the built-in GM synths should be sufficient, provided at the same time custom VST/AU sounds can be addressed more easily and quickly.
Mo., 03.01.2011 - 15:06 Permalink
Ah Andre, you mis-interpret the post.
It is Cognitone that challenges (most) end users in that you state a "General Midi Synth should be kept to hand"
GM plugins have long gone and are few and far between, the only ones we can find commercially available are the Edirol HQ and the Sonivox one in particular which has good quality sounds is available for download at just 74 US dollars, (which, is actually cheaper than HN itself) It seems perfect sense that such a low cost plugin should be bundled and set up for use "out of the box"
As mentioned in another forum, we merely point to the fact that certainly most PC users disable the onboard GM sound source either by jumpers on the motherboard or in the BIOS in order to install low latency high speed ASIO sound card and drivers. Therefore, having no access to a GM sound database, rendering HN Le or HN 2 of little or no use initially.
Such a ready to use low cost package would far more appealing to potential customers and considering that Sonivox products are highly respected and available on a number of established download stores, would bring awareness of and potential sales HN to a much wider audience would it not?
Mo., 03.01.2011 - 15:40 Permalink
Actually HN would not need a GM sound set at all, if the preset accompaniment patterns were designed for a single, general purpose sound like a piano only. The problem only arises when a pattern needs to address different types of sounds on demand and at any time.
Unfortunately, GM is the only standard to define how to select a guitar, or bass, or violin (or whatever), without requiring to setup program changes or custom plugins in advance. It is outdated and very limited, no doubt, but nothing was introduced ever since that could replace it.
The current VST/AU platform assumes that sound selection is entirely the responsibility of the user who is supposed to make all selections manually (no API for browsing). There are a few newer categorization frameworks, NI KORE for example, but these are proprietary and product-specific.
The way HN and Synfire manage sound selections and replacements is actually very sophisticated and ahead of what other MIDI-only applications can do. It's the MIDI bottleneck itself that makes the setup so tedious. If we manage to get past this, things will become much easier.
Mo., 03.01.2011 - 17:49 Permalink
Hmm.....Kore is not a good target VSTi for HN as it can VERY hungry for CPU resources. We counted a total of 42 voices being used by Edirol Hyper Canvas with HN on a laptop. Such a demand on Kore would bring many a system to it's knees as uses the engines from all the other NI plugins to work.
Other synths that can be used as a GM substitute might be IK Sample Tank or the new HalionSonic, but there again if HN came supplied with some pre-made templates for 16 channel to standalone industry standards such as Kontakt and Kontakt Player (which is free in any case) or it's own built in sound source it would be a different story.
No one doubts the sophisticationin the way that "combis" as you call them are generated and to emulate them in a sample player would be daunting to say the least, both in time, sound library cost and the hardware.
In your demo videos, you show your software addressing a rack of GP Orchestra (in Reaper), yet there is no included templates or set up for that VST included in HN Le. Once more it comes down to the issue of user friendlyness. One would suspect that the majority of people who use PC's for music are users of Kontakt (or Kontakt player as it's free) and there are unlimited libaries available at all price ranges.
Why don't you just create a few preset instrument templates that can simply be called up? One for Orchestra (as in your video with GPO) and one for a "combi" though please call it Rock band/Jazz Band or what ever LOL
It's doubtfull that owners of Kontakt with such a massive library would go out and spend more on GPO.
All our attempts at creating these setups have been unsuccseful in that they don't work properly when saved and re-called the next day which is doubly frustrating.
If you had such instrument templates included that are stable, reliable and worked well with a standalone sample player such as Kontakt, out of the box, then your product would be quite usable as a standalone idea generator. we would consider upgrading to HN2 then for extra features that look interesting such as feed a melody in and get chord progression suggestions.
Di., 04.01.2011 - 16:29 Permalink
My two cents: Personally, I'd much rather see Cognitone spend their efforts on getting the VST/AU implementation going, rather than creating custom setups for various third party products.
I think a VST/AU implementation would go a long way in making Synfire easier to use.
That said, I think there are some templates available on Cognitone's website. I'm not sure if they would meet your needs though.
Di., 04.01.2011 - 18:10 Permalink
We would have thought that a "factory made template" directly to 8 part multi for Kontakt or Kontakt Player would be of great benefit to many many people, after all it is almost the defacto indusrty standard sample playback plugin of choice. It would be down to individuals to load whatever libraries they would wish to use into any of the eight multi's in a single instance of Kontakt.
The idea of bundling it with a high quality third party GM softsynth, is another option for those people on PC's who have disabled the onboard sound by jumpers on the motherboard or in the BIOS, who on earth would want to dismantle thier PC case or change BIOS setting and reboot evry time they would ant to edit a HN midi file/progression?
Of course a VST/AU of the program would be brilliant but, as Andre has pointed out, addressing multi midi channels and tracks from a single track plugin that relies on a third party virtual midi cable is quite a tall order. The only way we see such a solution for HN would be to have eight instances each on thier own track, taking instructions from the "master HN" in track one. Though being realistic, a true VST plugin will be a long time coming.
Di., 04.01.2011 - 18:49 Permalink
The templates won't work anyway unless at least some VST/AU support is in place. It's the loopback driver setup that makes everything complicated and shaky, not so much the sound categorization.
We are already working on the specs in detail, following an extremely promising approach that will also solve a dozen other issues that are annoying us and our users since quite a while (transport sync, timing, recording, total recall of projects, etc). I hope we can get a proof of concept soon.
The only way we see such a solution for HN would be to have eight instances each on thier own track, taking instructions from the "master HN" in track one.
Quite close to what is in the making.
Di., 04.01.2011 - 23:36 Permalink
Andre
If you could point your browser to this address:
(http://www.bestservice.de/sort2.asp/ambient_chill_soundtrack/sample_log…)
There you can find videos demonstrating some of the current generation VSTi's we have mentioned - Cinematic Guitars and Morphestra and other plugin soft synths of choice.
If you have the time and watch the videos, you will see and hear clearly how we use basic midi chord and bass progressions with our VSTi's and would like have direct midi channels from the your parts mixer in HN to Kontakt without all the GM clutter.
We would like to try out the facility in HN2 that suggests progressions to a melody import - is it possible to run a demo of HN2 Advanced alongside the installation of HN Le that we recently purchased?
Di., 04.01.2011 - 23:59 Permalink
The sound libraries really sound great. They would even sound greater when played with a harmonic concept and structure. I often feel that most sound demos are just "boooh! wooh! ... " and then nothing happens ;-) This is where HN comes in handy.
Is it possible to run a demo of HN2 Advanced alongside the installation of HN Le?
Yes, they do not interfere.
If you import a melody for harmonization, be sure you select the "Input for Harmonization" preset for the desired tracks on the import dialog. Otherwise tracks are imported as dynamic phrases, which will make them follow the progression.
Mi., 05.01.2011 - 12:58 Permalink
We're pleased you took the time view some of the demo's, the plugins are quite representative of the current generation of VSTi's & AU - of course it goes without saying that the boundaries of such instruments are being pushed further and further every few months as different software houses raise the bar against each other, especially since the advent of 64 bit computing and the new VST 3 protocol.
Maybe you'll see now how frustrating it is not being able to trigger them properly from HN, and how tame GM soundset is in modern conteporary music.
We'll download again the Hn Advanced version and give it a spin.
Mi., 05.01.2011 - 13:40 Permalink
HN2 Advances will not run, it tells us the trial has expired even though we purchased HN Le version ?
Mi., 05.01.2011 - 19:24 Permalink
Hm. The demo includes both LE and Advanced and has a 30 day limit. Unfortunately we have no means to reset it. You would need to install the demo on a different computer (laptop?). That will give you another 30 days. Contact me directly (support at cognitone com) if that doesnt work for you.
Mi., 05.01.2011 - 23:07 Permalink
Cheers Andre, we purchased the LE version and it is installed on this laptop. Didn't think that was over 30 days ago though.
The main PC's have had the GM soundchips disabled by jumper pins on the mobo's as they are fitted with Sonic Core DSP soundcards. They actually use thier own internal wiring/buss system to connect all thier modular mixer surfaces, plugins and synths together internally. All the midi/audio in/out of the cards go via a lightpipe to the mixing desk along with word clock sync.
Maybe do a windows restore on here (if it hasn't been disabled) to before the LE licence was downloaded. Or maybe install it on a PC and try to get the Sonic Core to pick up on the midi out of your software internaly, will let you know what happens.
Mo., 14.02.2011 - 07:13 Permalink
I'm not sure why outsounder insist on the editorial 'we,' but it does grate.
I also fail to see what the fuss about GM is. It is still a highly useful system of varied voices in GM or GM2 that cover most basic arrangements. Nothing has substituted for it.
So instead, lets say lead (melodic), rhythm (chordal), bass and drums ... surely the sine qua non of 99% of even DAW minimalists. Who cares what original voices they come in? Does it matter if it was a GM electic piano and you revoice it with your super duper Rhodes from Omnisphere or your Motif Workstation? Once in the DAW they are alll infinitely malleable to voice and revoice, harmonize, midi controllerize, render to audio, VST effect, chop, slice and dice to hearts content.
Whatever we call those basic tracks generated in HN2 or like program, they will invariably be midi ... and must be a lead melody with harmony, bass and drums, no? All the reconfiguration in the DAW would still have to occur no matter what scheme HN2 used to play them back while using the program.
Improvement of work flow is an entirely different matter ... and I would welcome a VSTi version. But keep the GM. It is ubiquitous, well understood and without alternative. If you change to some other unique standard of your own you will only hear more grousing and complaining.
While outsound names many popular VSTis, with which I presume he is conversant, to me his comments miss the point. If you have the notes, then you may apply them to taste in any manner and to any source you prefer. HN2 is essentially about the notes ... not the voices. If you want a midi program that does voicing, i.e., manipulates midi data to approximate the real way a real instrument is played, then look at Nyonyx Style Enhaner 4.0.
Prado
Mo., 14.02.2011 - 14:52 Permalink
I totally agree. I think it's great GM support (since it is the only standard), and I think COGNITONE should keep it. Improvements should be directed towards better integration with the DAWS (ReWire, VSTi format, import / export / drag & drop midi files, or all of these possibilities, including the current STAND ALONE format)
BTW, thanks Cognitone, for listening to the opinions of the users.
Mo., 14.02.2011 - 20:23 Permalink
Agreeing too: Keep GM. Support VSTi. For me, just composing, it is absolutely sufficiant to have GM and I want my Synfire quick and easy, no tons of sounds I have to care about. I'm on a stinky little MacBook with max. RAM 4GB. I am happy, when Sybfire launches as quick as possible when I start it up to test a musical idea. So for me, keep it small & simple.
Maybe, it will come a time to split Synfire into a composers- and a producers-edition?
best, Minkepatt