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How do i get the chords for the C minor natural scale and more..

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I do want to see the triads chords belonging to each of the 3 paralell C minor scales in the palette.
-natural minor


-harmonic -minor


-melodic-minor


I can use those chords for coloring the chordprogression by "borrowing chords" from the parallel scales
So i must figure out what triads are possible for the natural C minor scale ..to start with
Can Synfire assist me with this ?
I start simple with triads from C major ..make a progression and chance chords in this progression "borrowed"form the C paralell scale.


Di., 27.01.2015 - 20:39 Permalink

How do i get to see in Synfire on the keyboard on the palette tab, the triads  of de C natural minor parallel scale of C major ?


Cmin-Ddim-Eb-Fm -Gm-Ab-Bb(-Cm) are the triads for C natural minor scale if i am correct
The triads on the palette are not always in rootposition, but that's no problem.
Modal interchance is with Synfire working with written information for yourself about the scale chords ..Synfire cannot support me with this ?
For Borrowing chords ..you can set this on english language : http://www.popschoolmaastricht.nl/college_songwriting_akkoorden_toonsoorten.php?menu=menuMuziektheorie


This sort of information i canot find in Synfirre ?

Di., 27.01.2015 - 22:30 Permalink

Not sure if its what you want, but have you tried. Opening the C Major palette...The click on the palette button and select the minor-major scale. then make sure the natural minor button is selected on the left (also make it the default). It helps to click the freeze button too next so things dont change.

That shows for me the I II III IV V VI VII as Cm Ddim Eb Fm Gm Ab Bb with other alternate chords that match highlighted too.

 

 

Mi., 28.01.2015 - 10:49 Permalink

Yes that's correct .. but how do you know what triads chords are for this scale Cm natural-minor ..


What makes that you choose in Synfire on the palette  : Cm-Ddim-Eb-Fm-Gm-Ab-Bb-(Cm) for the scale Cm natural-minor ?
These above mentioned chord belong to the key of Cm natural-minor...how to see this in Synfire ? 
Note: As i can see it now, there are in general  for the modal scales (dorian, etc ) started on the white keys of a piano only a minor and dimished and major triad chords type to choose as modal interchance chords in relation to a C major scale


Good for chord progression coloring... 


Example


We do have in the key of C  triads and sevenths
C-Dm-Em_F-G-Am-Bo
Cmaj7-Dm7-Em7-Fmaj7-G7-Am7-Bo7
What are the 7 chords for the D dorian mode ?


Dm7-Em7-Fmaj7-G7-Am7-Bo7-Cmaj7-(Dm7)  ( the same as 7 chords as for the C major)


And this is were the interchance takes place..


We now transpose this D dorian arrangement back to our original key, which is C ..now we get new chords to play with (borrowed)
Cm7-Dm7-Ebmaj7-F7 -Gm7-Ao7-Bbmaj7-Cm7


Let's compare the 7chords types for Cmajor and the transposed chords to C from the D dorian scale


Cmaj7-Dm7-Em7-Fmaj7-G7-Am7-Bo7-(Cmaj7) - C major scale


Cm7-Dm7-Ebmaj7-F7 -Gm7-Ao7-Bbmaj7-(Cm7) - transposed D dorian scale to C
Only the Dm7 is the same chord type for both scales
In a major progression of 7 chords you can interchance chords with the D dorian and experiment with that how it sounds.
This same technique for triads- for popmusic



This transposed D dorian scale to C can be stored as template in Synfire, because to get these chords by pallette seems to be a difficult approach



If i compose in C major i can borrow some 7 chords or triads


More information about secondairy dominants and cadenses...i think it is handy to store this as template inSynfire to have the information at your direct disposal.
This is all about coloring more the standard chord progression   ( modal interchance and secondairy dominants.. to start with)
Another  very import concept are the 3 chordfamilies for as basis chord replacement in the progression what helps you to get variation in the chordprogression  


I-V1
IV-ii
V-iii-vii 
You see the primary triads I-IV-V  with connected triads .. they have in common tha they share 2 notes..the chords are almost the same
example  I-V   .. I - iii or I-vii   and so on
So 3 techniques for more chord progression coloring..  


 


Looking again to the D dorian 7 chords ..in  the pallette view with the circle of fifth.
Put live Chord detection on ...play a 4 chord starting on d- key ..you get Dm7 dorian chord for degree I
How do i get the other chords?

Mi., 28.01.2015 - 12:43 Permalink

I made a template for the chord cadenses


- PAC perfect authentic cadense , uses rootposition makes it "strong cadense", compare it with .  (period ) in a musical sentence. 


V-I  in rootposition
V7-I -> strongest in rootposition


- IAC  imperfect   ,,             ,,       , use not rootpositon makes it less strong , compare it with a , comma)  in a musical sentence. 


- HC  half cadense ,   number of chord before the  V    ?- V   ? =( I - ii -IV - V/V , etc --> think on the 3 chordfamilies)


- PC  placale cadense ,  also known a church cadense , a softer cadense then V-I  (in rootpostion ), also a . (period) in a musical sentence. 


- DC deceptive cadense ,  also as a "suprize cadense" , uses not a I chord, but a vi  (  chord family: I and vi ..differ two notes )  , can be a considered as  ? or ! in a musical sentence.


Bass notes for chords in Synfire with the numeral keys 1,2,3,4 ,...
To start with chords in Synfire : use of cadenses and the 3 chordfamilies principle , then chord coloring with modal interchance chords and secondairy dominants chords

Mi., 28.01.2015 - 19:45 Permalink

Is that a trick question? I thought the answer was..to see the chords of the c major scales, open a c major scles palette. I'm all confused now.

Mi., 28.01.2015 - 21:08 Permalink

 How do you get the triads for the C minor natural scale ( parallell  scale of C major ) as earlier explained in Synfire ?
I know how to get this by hand, but how to get this in Synfire ..easy  ( not possible! )    :)


I do want borrow chords from parallel scales of C major ...to use in the C major scale or in a G major scale after modulation ( then you get G parallel scales from G major scale ).


What chords to use in a progression is not that easy..   


 

Mi., 28.01.2015 - 22:15 Permalink

How do you get the triads for the C minor natural scale ( parallell  scale of C major ) as earlier explained in Synfire ?

Here is a palette, where all triads (and suspended chords) that you can create from the C natural minor scale are highlighted in blue.

Mi., 28.01.2015 - 22:50 Permalink

Further experimenting to try to get the triads for the C major scale to show in the pallette
C - Dm- Em -F-G-Am-Bo -(C)
It seems that Synfire not yet is capable to do this..the picture gives for example 2 triads on note C ..wich one to choose for a c natural minor (  i know the answer, but Synfire not )

Mi., 28.01.2015 - 23:17 Permalink

Yes, the chords you can create, but i do need specific chords for the C natural minor scale belonging to that scale    :)


The chordstructure from a natural minor (starts on the a note of the C major scale)  is the same for C natural minor , but you cannot see that in the pallette  what triads are exactly for C natural minor.
The pallette gives 2 triads on note c ..what triad to choose in Synfire for the c natural minor scale ?
I know the answer.


Blacksun you can puzzle on this ...

Mi., 28.01.2015 - 23:37 Permalink

Im not going to puzzle on it. If I knew what chords or melody I wanted to use, I wouldnt need synfire, I might be partially deaf but Im not Beethoven. Given the diagram jurgen has shown I would try both and go with the one that sounded the best. In fact Id try some of the other ones not highlighted too. Synfire helps me create music, not write music theory books. I'd use google if that was what i was trying to do.

 

Do., 29.01.2015 - 00:08 Permalink

yes, also possible to use those chords synfire offer from his palette ..and listening how it sounds
A practical approach... nothing wrong with this..good done.

Do., 29.01.2015 - 07:38 Permalink

The highlighted chords in that palette are exactly those that are belonging to the C natural minor scale. No more and no less. If there is more than one chord displayed at a scale step then that means that all of them are belonging to the scale and do contain the note of that step. And of course you can use all of those chords in your arrangement.

Do., 29.01.2015 - 09:34 Permalink

Cm is derived from the a minor scale for the C natural minor parallel scale of C major, but Csus and m7  i cannot trace down ?
But two triads to choose: Cm or Csus as modal interchance chords for a C major progression 

Do., 29.01.2015 - 11:01 Permalink

Cm is derived from the a minor scale for the C natural minor parallel scale of C major, but Csus and m7  i cannot trace down ?

If you click at a chord, then you can see at the bottom of the palette the associated scale steps of the notes. I cannot test it right now, but if you click at Csus4 the steps I, IV and V of the C natural minor scale should be highlighted, which means that the chord consists of the notes C, F and G. If you click at Cm7 the steps, I, III, V and VII should be highlighted, which would be the notes C, Eb, G and Bb.

 

Do., 29.01.2015 - 12:38 Permalink

Yes , you can see how those chords are build ( inversion or root position ) and belonging to the scale.


You can borrow chords from different scales to use in a progression, but it is not possible to see in synfire what those chords types exactly are from a choosen scale were the borrowed chords come from..as i see it now.


As example i refer to the C minor natural parallel scale of C major.
Cmin : Cm-Ddim-Eb-Fm-Gm-Ab-Bb- (Cm)


Aminor : Am-Bdim-C-Dm-Em-F-G-(Am) :


If you compare both scales they have the same chord structure ( the scale formulae for Aminor is used for the scale starting on C )


It is experimenting : Cm in the circle of fifth in Synfire offers 7 chords , but in the case of Cminor natural i know the triads at forehand ..i don't know from what (borrow) scales comes these triads Csus2 and Csus4.     


One can say ..is it neccessary to know this the scale from were you borrow chords ? ..you can choose from the pallette and let your ears judge for the chord you want..knowing the chord quality is enough. 


For someone who is playing piano and compose with chords it is needed to know "borrowchords" i think.

Do., 29.01.2015 - 18:17 Permalink

Jan

ithink you need to rephrase the question. What are you trying to do?

the chords you are talking about are part of the scale you have selected. they aren't borrowed they do not include passing notes. They are made up of notes from the selected c natural minor scale. maybe describe what you are trying to do in a way that is not synfire specific. Eg move seamlessly between two scales in the same song Rather than display xxx on the palette.

 

Do., 29.01.2015 - 19:14 Permalink

I got the imp[ression that you don't understand what i mean with "borrowed "chords (aka modal mixtures). 
Passing tones is handled by Synfire's voiceleading ( i assume ), and i only have to construct a progression and don't bother about passing tones.
I try to enrich for instance  a C major scale or whattever scale  with chords borrowed from other scales. 


It is not a invention by my.. it is well known music theory  :)

Do., 29.01.2015 - 19:25 Permalink

I had to check, but it is what I thought it was. I still think those chords are from the parallel scale so still don't understand what you are trying to do that precludes those chords?

 Sorry to be so stupid if I'm missing the obvious, but music theory isn't my strong point

Do., 29.01.2015 - 20:39 Permalink

Start with the C major scale on your midi keyboard
This C major scale exist of steps (half (H)  en whole(W) ) and so this scale has a certain steppattern 
WWHWWWH  ( whole step-whole step-half step-whole step- ... )



If you play the white and black keys for one octave .. you get 12 H ( Half steps)
c-cis-d-dis-e-f-fis - ...


The point is that the scale C major has a formulae : a stepformulae ( a serie of consecutive white keys )
I memorize this formulae as 2 1/2 3 1/2 ( two and half three and half ) is 2 whole steps followed by a half step  and followed by three whole steps and last followed by half step


WWHWWWH = 2 1/2 3 1/2 or also possible denote a scale formulae as:  2212221 ( a whole step consist of two half steps...


2212221  .. i like this notation and have seen it on internet in explanation about musictheory and scales


WWHWWWH = 2 1/2 3 1/2 =2212221


Once understood you can go further.. what are the steps for a Cmajor or D minor triad  on the C major scale ?
The first triad on the C major scale has 2 whole steps for c to e and for e to g a whole step  plus a half step
So a-c has 4 half steps ( a major third) and e to g has 3 half steps ( a minor third )
Intervals .... a distance between two notes : start with the c note  and go to the d note : what interval?
What makes a major triad different from a minor triad ?

Study the C major scale for triads built on every key  .. if do this then it is C -dm-em-F-G-am-bo-(C)


And so on...
In synfire you must know at forehand in a chordprogression what chord belongs to a used chordprogression key, if you want to borrow chord from another scale otherwise you lose sight on what you are doing.
Writing down the startprogression is also a idea ... 


You can study the:  Ask Video - Music Theory 106 Building Chord Progressions  GOOD FOR LEARNING


  


 

Do., 29.01.2015 - 22:53 Permalink

Thanks for that mini lesson.

However I still fail to understand why the Cm7 and CSus4 (and other chords) highlighted when you select the C natural minor scale, which are made up from notes from that scale, are either not considered part of that scale or are not 'allowed' to be 'borrowed' for use in a progression based on the C major scale?

Do., 29.01.2015 - 23:28 Permalink

I hope you understand this ..


Cm7 and Csus4 are not the triads belonging to the scale of C natural minor (parallel scale of C major)
I have explained this earlier in some post back : The C natural minor scale is the same scale as the A minor natural scale 
I consider only triads ..so Cm7 does not count here ..for that you must consider sevent chords of the A minor natural scale.


What triad chords you can construct on the A minor natural scale ? : look at you midi keyboard  and start on the note a
and consider the white keys on your midi keyboard ..and construct triads on every key note for one octave ( it is analog this triad constructing as you did for the C major scale )


If you know the triads for the C major scale it is not difficult anymore to consruct the triads for the A natural minor key
C major scale  triads : C- Dm-Em-F-G-Am-Bo -(C)
A minor scale triads:  Am-Bo-C-Dm-Em-F-G-(Am) --> this same scale is used for C Minor natural ( parallel scale of C major)
Conclusion  : for the C minor natural scale  is the first triad chord .. Cm  ( C minor triad)


     


 

Fr., 30.01.2015 - 00:02 Permalink

Conclusion  : for the C minor natural scale  is the first triad chord .. Cm  ( C minor triad)

Well that's a real eye-opener, thanks!

Cm7 and Csus4 are not the triads belonging to the scale of C natural minor (parallel scale of C major)

I admit I only have a basic understanding of music theory, I let Synfire sort it out for me.  But what you're talking about here is VERY basic is it not?  C natural minor contains the notes C,D,Eb,F,G,Ab,Bb.  Csus4 contains the notes C,F,G so of course Csus4 is a triad of the C natural minor scale.  This is also indicated by Synfire in the picture that Juergen posted.

A minor scale triads:  Am-Bo-C-Dm-Em-F-G-(Am) --> this same scale is used for C Minor natural ( parallel scale of C major)

I don't understand that statement at all, but perhaps that's just me.  In fact I don't understand the point of this whole thread!

Fr., 30.01.2015 - 00:25 Permalink

Short answer, no I still do not understand....

I thought the A natural minor scale was made up of A B C D E F G

I thought the C natural minor scale was made up of C D Eb F G Ab Bb

I thought the C natural minor scale was a parallel scale of the C Major scale

I thought the A natural minor scale was a relative scale of the C Major scale

I thought the Csus4 chord is made up of notes from the C natural minor scale and was therefore part of that scale.

I thought therefore you could borrow the Csus4 chord to use in a progression based on a C major scale.

I thought the same was true of all the chords highlighted when selecting the c natural minor scale in the palette as shown by Juregen.

Which bits have I got wrong? However rather than continue this is the forum, for the benefit of the other people that understand it already and to avoid getting ever further from the answer to the original question, maybe you could message me your reply and we can continue my education privately?

 

 

Fr., 30.01.2015 - 00:52 Permalink

It is better to stop this conversation.... about "borrowing" chords ( modal interchance ), because it seems confusing.


C sus2 is coming from ..what scale?..not from C minor natural  .. from what scale then ?



I thought the Csus4 chord is made up of notes from the C natural minor scale and was therefore part of that scale.


Is Csus 4 a triad build on the white keys of a C minor natural parallel scale of C major ? ..no !


C sus 4 is not belonging to the key of C minor parallel if you use white keys..only white keys are used for this scale C minor natural .
That is my idea from this perhaps i am wrong ..could be .. correct me. 


 
 

Fr., 30.01.2015 - 00:56 Permalink

I don't understand that statement at all, but perhaps that's just me.  In fact I don't understand the point of this whole thread!


I said earlier, that i do want borrow ( use them in a c major progression) some chords from the C minor natural scale for using them in a C major scale . 
It is all about functional harmony.... 


I do have a c major progression with known triads for me  .. how about the C minor natural parallel scale of  C major ?


Two scales :  C major and C minor natural ( parallel scale of C major) .. both scales offers  "triads" on the scale steps of their scales.
Modal interchance  : the process of using chords from a "borrow scale" into a working scale ...    


Suppose you do have  a G major chord progression ..can i spice up this chord progression with borrow chords from C minor natural or  C dorian scale .. to name some scales .. there are more borrow scales.  


 

Fr., 30.01.2015 - 10:14 Permalink

Thanks Blacksun..that's a good site to read about scales


Can you play on your midi keyboard, all the triads on the C major scale for every white key..if so ..identify what type of triad you are dealing with ( major or a minor or a diminshed triad ? ) 
You build up a triad on the c note ( first degree of the Major scale : I) , then you build up a second triad on the second note d ( second degree of the Major C scale ) , and so on


The roughly degree notation (not correct yet) (Roman numerals used in functional harmony) ..for the C major scale here
I(c)-II(d)-III(e)-IV(f)-V(g)-VI(a)-VII(b)- and back on the I degree back (c again only octave higer )


Answer: C-dm-em-F-G-am-bo- and back on c with a C triad only one octave higher on your keyboard


Let's look at the Aminor scale of C major : Aminor is a relative scal of C major or conversely C major is a relative scale of A minor..that's the same


We know the triad types of C major  and how about C minor (natural) ? ( starts 3 steps back of C ..  em-bo-C-dm
 C-dm-em-F-G-am-bo- C-dm-em-F-G-am-bo-C


Notation is important ..i write dm ..small letter ..means a minor chord , C.. capital letter means a major chord.
I memorize the C major triads by: large - small- small- large-large - small- large- diminshed- and back on c one octave higher also a Cmajor triad
By playing them on the keyboard is also possible and regocnize them.


We do have the primairy triads(I-IV-V) and secondairy triads in this sequenze of chords for the C major scale
I notate them in roman numerals and if i notate those triads in the functional notation. 
I-ii-iii-IV-V-vi-viio-I     (notice the capital and small use of the roman numerals ..IMPORTANT)


It is easy to see what in this functional notation for C major what  are the major chords and minor chords  ( can't remember the functional notation for the diminshed triad on degree 7 is correct : viio ? )


Can you play the triads on C major scale ? ( those triads belong to that key of C major : all notes in the chords are scale notes)


  

Fr., 30.01.2015 - 11:23 Permalink

I managed to make a gif for the first  4 triads of the C major scale ..it goes further up to get all 8 triads( then you are back on c4 .one octave higher


The rootnote of the triad goes up on every scale degree of the C major scale.. all triads are in rootpositon !
Synfire has different notation for minor chords Dm and Em then i use.. you can see i play a C-Dm-Em-F  triads..only with white keys
You could try to play : C-Dm-Em-F-G-Am-Bdim-C


Can't make it easier for you...  
If you start with clicking on the chords C-Dm-Em-F-G-Am-Bdim-C in the pallette then you don't get always the triads in rootposition on the keyboard..you get inversion of triads too ( for a better voiceleading  i think )
To play all triads in rootposition is not common practice


It is clear that in Synfire i cannot see for C major scale what triads belong to that scale ..the fact that triad construction was easy ..only white keys gives the triads
Becomes more difficult when i want to find out what triads belonges to the C minor natural scale.. the triad construction is not only with white keys possible..only when i know the triads for the a natural minor scale.. i can predict what the triads are for the C natural minor.

C minor natural has the same scale as A minor natural( the relative scale of C major ), but starts on c 
Once you know the triads for a minor natural on the degrees of the scale .. you know them for C minor natural

Modal interchance -aka modal textures : borrow chord from another scale to use them in chordprogression
I compose in a C major scale  and add chords from C minor natural in this C major progression to get more colorful progressions. 
To get more out "musical" in Synfire you need to know more about chords..if i could see what the triads and sevenths, nine's, eleventh chords are belonging to a particular scale makes it more controlled.     


 

Fr., 30.01.2015 - 12:41 Permalink

It is clear that in Synfire i cannot see for C major scale what triads belong to that scale

Really? Are they not directly in front of your eyes, if you look at the palette of your gif?