Posted
This is still a bit of a grey area for me, especially with progressions that are between two or three keys. I'll provide an example so I can explain what i'm still a little hazy on. Right:
In the figure attached (imported) the progression is predominately in D but also plays around with the key of A, and the F#major also adds some chromatic flavour. Have a listen to the original melody in the take parameter, then my attempt at figure recognition, pretty much what Synfire spat out so you guys can point me in the right direction of where to go from there. Trying for a carbon copy, not because I want to rip it off, just want to have a good grasp on it so I can preserve my own figures correctly.
I often have trouble with not being able to map certain tones correctly so I lose the feeling that certain notes provide against a chord. I know this has a lot to do with interpretation but I'm having trouble with hitting certain notes and partial chord inversions regardless of interpretation, bar the lax templates, with progressions that are between keys so to speak.
I understand the chord symbols map to the vertical scale but a little confused about the horizontal symbols. If you look at the the horizontal symbols over the F# chord, I can't seem to get it to play (C# D E), synfire plays (C# E F#). I can loosen the voice leading in interpretation, or bypass the voice leading altogether for that segment but isn't that problematic later on when applying the figures to other arrrangements? Will all horizontal symbols map to the Key in the harmony parameter or to the horizontal scale for each chord and how do they relate? i.e if I've selected D for the key in the attached phrase, what will the grid lines represent over the F# chord? And what is the best mode to choose for this in the horizontal scale. Will the centre tone be D or F# (and will it be relative to the vertical/horizontal scales i've chosen) I can't get my head around the relationship between the scales. Been doing a lot of testing but always different to what i think i might expect.
Anyone care to take a look at the Phrase attached and have a go at producing a carbon copy of the saved take? Synfire does a pretty good job of figure recognition, I can do a pretty good job of tweaking that too, moving the chord tones around to match the correct inversions but not sure if i'm on the right track with the scale settings and interpretation.
Well, quite an ask, still not really confident so any help would be greatly appreciated. I figure someone else having a go at an example i'm familiar with might clear up my confusion. Thanks.
(Example.cogdef)
example_103.cogdef
Mo., 12.07.2010 - 10:33 Permalink
Interesting question. Andre will probably know better answers than me.
Horizontal scale symbols map to the reference scale (top scale in the palette) of the global key. In addition, notes are limited to the pitch classes of the vertical scale. That is, you will not be able to play outside the vertical scale unless you turn the Chromatic switch on for a segment.
I noticed that your phrase misses the Harmony parameter, so I tried and saved a phrase from an arrangement and found it does not include the container globals (Harmony, Scheme, Tempo). In a strict sense of logic, this is correct, although it is certainly not what you intended. Only the standalone phrase editor saves phrases with all global parameters. I feel there should be an option to open a phrase in a standalone editor.
Open the phrase in a standalone phrase editor, paste the progression to it and save again. That will include it with the file.
Do., 15.07.2010 - 22:04 Permalink
Here's what I did to make a carbon copy (almost):
- Harmonized the Take in key A Major:
| A | F#m | Bm F#m | E | Em | D | D A | A |
I had to take care of some notes played ahead of the beat and set the chord change positions (transitions) accordingly.
- Re-recognized the Figure based on the new progression
- Disabled voice leading for the melodic ornaments. This keeps them more like the original, although I would expect them to render suboptimal against other progressions. The VL generally ensures a Figure renders fine against most thinkable progressions. The downside is it often affects the original phrase too.
- Set Interpretation to "Keyboards (rhythmic)" and set anchor pitch priority to "Intervals". This mainly because of a bug in the "Balanced" setting that can cause unwanted octave leaps to occur.
Although I knew there was something in the renderer causing these leaps, I could not identify exactly where. Therefore thanks for providing this particular sample phrase that revealed the issue very clearly. By chance, it's probably the worst leap I ever heard (now it's AR 1080).
I did everything in the phrase pool editor, because it contains a harmonizer and all other tools needed to tinker with a phrase.
I've attached the resulting file.
Andre
(Tweaked Phrase.pool)
tweaked_phrase_189.pool
So., 18.07.2010 - 06:42 Permalink
thanks for the interest, appreciate it. it's opened my eyes to some things.
supertonic, sorry didn't realise i lost the harmony parameter in standalone phrase. I should use the phrase editor for even single phrases. Andre came pretty close to my interpretation anyway. i worked it out to be:
|| A | F# | Bm A | E | Em7 | D | A | A ||
Okay just to clear up some other things. On the F# Major, the vertical scale is F# Phyrigian dominant so the notes included in that scale are C# D E but it seems the horizontal symbols will only hit the chord tones plus the 7th on the grid, unless i bypass VL. And interestingly the centre line for horizontal symbols is the major 3rd of F# and not the root. Why is that so? I guess I'm confused mostly bout the grid. Maybe i'm missing something simple in interpretation like priority - balance or pitch. So i I think once I understand the relationship between the scales and the grid I'll be more adept at it. How would I get access to all the notes in F# Phyrigian dominant over the F# chord with the horizontal, tried vertical symbols, they still pretty much map to chord tones. So if the horizontal scale is B harmonic minor and the vertical is F# phyrg dom, which is just the 5th mode of the former, and the relation scale is B minor, what effect do they have on the grid and how do they interact with each other. Is the relation scale overriding the global key scale for each chord regarding horizontal symbols. All the melody notes fall in with the global key anway.
I get pretty close to a carbon copy too. I'm staritng to think i'm heading down the wrong path though, in taht i'm worry too much bout figure quality. Nuance probably gets lost when you throw figures round with other progressions. Should just play around and tweak by ear. I attached the phrase again anyway with the harmony if you want to have a look at it.
(Example w Harmony.cognac)
example_w_harmony_134.cognac
Di., 20.07.2010 - 20:59 Permalink
[quote]And interestingly the centre line for horizontal symbols is the major 3rd of F# and not the root. Why is that so?
The grid has a different meaning for different symbol types. Horizontal symbols start at the root of the global key (tonal center), while vertical scales start at the root of the chord.
[quote]How would I get access to all the notes in F# Phyrigian dominant over the F# chord with the horizontal, tried vertical symbols, they still pretty much map to chord tones.
Use a weak VL setting. The VL attempts to use chord tones at certain positions in order to emphasize the chord changes. If you turn that off, you'll get the full scale everywhere.
[quote]Is the relation scale overriding the global key scale for each chord regarding horizontal symbols.
The relation scale is a subset of the vertical scale. Its purpose is to provide an easy to remember name for the perceived sound of all the vertical modes it offers. It is easier to get a general idea of the sound of "harmonic-minor", than of all its seven modes.
And yes, you can't play any notes from the global key scale that are not also in the current vertical scale.
[quote]Nuance probably gets lost when you throw figures round with other progressions. Should just play around and tweak by ear.
Absolutely. A true carbon copy most often only works in its original context (or a chromatic transpostion thereof).