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Synfire 2.0 Preview

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Mo., 27.12.2021 - 09:39 Permalink

Please try to have same approach for other key functionalities

Sure. The same drag/drop tree organization and search module is already used for rack modules and presets (shown in the video), device descriptions, and phrase libraries. 

This, the new Sound Assistant, Overview, Factories and Snippets, and a more modern UI behavior in general, make Synfire 2.0 a completely new experience from the ground up. Oh, and there's a long list of hundreds of items that have been fixed, improved and streamlined.

Mi., 29.12.2021 - 17:52 Permalink

Are there any scripting languages similar to the KIM stuff that I could familiarize myself with before launch?

Do., 30.12.2021 - 17:07 Permalink

> akin to prolog

As fas as I remember only somewhat in terms of concepts, but not syntax. Also, AFAIK, KIM will not (yet?) be user-accessible in the next version.

Mi., 19.01.2022 - 17:34 Permalink

I am new to this forum. Have read the thread about Synfire 2 and as hobbyist with almost no music theory background but fascination for generative, emerging music making I am quite excited what Cognitone has in the works.

Is there a rough ETA? Just rough, Q1, Q2 or later 2022?

Mi., 19.01.2022 - 22:16 Permalink

The rough ETA was at least 6 months ago, LOL.

But Synfire 2.0 is worth waiting for, as many here will attest.

In its current state Synfire is an indispensible addition to my studio. Synfire 2.0 promises to be even better, by a large margin.

Edit: Welcome to the forum!

Mi., 19.01.2022 - 23:11 Permalink

You've come to the right place!  Synfire is a slightly obtuse beast, but it would appear Andre and team are hard at work making things more user-accessible and powerful. That being said, after you jump a few hoops and start grabbing stuff and transforming sound with the tool, it's a great, inspirational starting point, and great fun to boot!  (for twisted techno-creative types such as ourselves)

"generative, emerging music making":  I like that, may start a new thread as I'd like to pick some brains around here. I have a little knowledge, and that breeds (dare I say generates) more and more questions.  I've been picking up some music theory over the years.  That knowledge, along with using tools like Synfire (and many others) has endowed me with strange musical superpowers and a heap big thirst to KNOW MORE.  

Do., 20.01.2022 - 22:59 Permalink

Progress is doing fine. Still producing content.

KIM factories are very much like synthesizers that generate phrases instead of sound, with lots of controllers to play with (see image). Imagine a synth that comes with no presets. That would be unacceptable. Therefore we are now orking on a hundred or so pre-built factories that can serve as inspiration and a starting point for refinement. Occasionally a bug pops up that needs fixing.

Oh, and then there's this Dice button for random settings. I'm having a hard time sifting through thousands of suggestions, some of which are so surprising, they could give rise to musical styles nobody has ever heard of. A cornucopia of music.

And while all this is being done, new workflows emerge that I haven't thought of yet. Good stuff for new tutorials. At this point everything is falling nicely into line, which is a very good sign.

Will keep you posted.

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Fr., 21.01.2022 - 07:23 Permalink

> Imagine a synth that comes with no presets. That would be unacceptable. 

I understand that presets are of course important for marketing, but I for one would not agree with the absoluteness of this statement. After all, early analogue synths did indeed start without presets, and some may even consider that a feature. Sorry, but someone had to respond to this... 

Fr., 21.01.2022 - 21:03 Permalink

I'd say it would be much worst than a marketing problem, if users fail to get something useful after hours of fiddling, only because there are no starting points in this vast combinatorial space to depart from. This is a new pardigm and nobody has any experience with it yet. There need to be a few guardrails and signposts in this empty universe, or people get lost.

Fr., 21.01.2022 - 21:25 Permalink

Hi Andre

There's no rush. Take your time to get this right. We can wait.

 

Sa., 22.01.2022 - 07:59 Permalink

Fair enough. Anyway, as I wrote before, I am certainly happy to wait. No rush.  :)  

Mo., 21.02.2022 - 18:04 Permalink

I am a bit confused about Synfire v2 release date after such a long time since it has been mentioned in the first post. I now want to decide to either buy Reapidcomposer (stable and M1 ready and quite feature rich) or wait a bit for Synfire v2 (probably more expensive but more features). Current Synfire does not run on my Mac Mini M1. I do not want to wait another month. So please advise. Thx.

Mo., 21.02.2022 - 18:39 Permalink

Synfire and Rapid Composer are different beasts altogether.  (I own both) Both are made by small, dedicated teams of programmers who love their craft and their product.  Writing code is hard work.  Making sure the software is stable on whatever hardware/software it ends up getting run on is very tedious, time consuming work: the complete opposite of fun.  v2 will run on M1 Macs when it's released (yay!)  Take your time folks, get it right. Everything I've seen so far in these forums has me excited for Synfire v2.  
 

Whispers In The Dark by Slackmaster

Mo., 21.02.2022 - 18:39 Permalink

Synfire and Rapid Composer are different beasts altogether.  (I own both) Both are made by small, dedicated teams of programmers who love their craft and their product.  Writing code is hard work.  Making sure the software is stable on whatever hardware/software it ends up getting run on is very tedious, time consuming work: the complete opposite of fun.  v2 will run on M1 Macs when it's released (yay!)  Take your time folks, get it right. Everything I've seen so far in these forums has me excited for Synfire v2.  
 

Whispers In The Dark by Slackmaster

Mi., 23.02.2022 - 01:39 Permalink

I understand, writing code is hard and a lot of work is involved and many things could go wrong.

What I don’t understand is why they announced it ages ago! While they didn’t even have a working beta! 

If it’s some kind of marketing strategy, I don’t understand how it helps? I think it only creates disappointment!

Mi., 23.02.2022 - 02:32 Permalink

I'm right there with you, by the way: chomping at the bit to try this upgrade.  I set Synfire aside a long time ago as dealing with the complexity of setting up VST plugins was not much fun.  So I moved on to aother alogoritmic composers. But what Synfire could do was special and I've already upgraded so i can recieve this new shiny new thing.  There's a dedicated, long-time community of users here waiting for Andre to make it as bullet proof as the Data gods will allow. 

Mi., 23.02.2022 - 13:26 Permalink

I am as impatient as everyone. The workload is mind numbing and I feel like pregnant and overdue.

I see how it can be difficult from the outside to understand what it takes to release a product family like Synfire. It's not just writing code, which is hard enough. Synfire as a project is huge and it takes an insane amount of work to iron out issues, sand off the edges and complete all the non-code stuff to get it all published. We simply understimated this. 

So here we are, going as fast as we can with the resources we have.

Here's the plan: 

To speed things up a bit, we'll have a soft launch.

We will pre-release 2.0 for existing Synfire Pro users first, so you don't have to wait any longer than absolutely necessary. If you are already familiar with Synfire, you may be ready to begin without the full documentation and content package. Express and Sparks, after having them separated as independent editions, will be released when everything is done and packaged, together with Pro for new users.

Regarding ETA: As fast as we can.

I'm so looking forward to the day we see all the grins and the joy of the new toy spreading out into the world. It's been a long ride.
 

Mi., 23.02.2022 - 18:12 Permalink

We will pre-release 2.0 for existing Synfire Pro users first, 

So everybody should hurry up to join the "Club of existing Synfire Pro users" to enjoy the pre-release :)

 

Sa., 26.02.2022 - 10:39 Permalink

I'd love to join as well, where do I sign up? Or are we getting ahead of ourselves? Thanks :)

Di., 01.03.2022 - 11:05 Permalink

We will pre-release 2.0 for existing Synfire Pro users first, 

So everybody should hurry up to join the "Club of existing Synfire Pro users" to enjoy the pre-release :)

I've been waiting for 2.0 to be released to get started with Synfire, but if I buy in now, apparently that means I'll get the pre-release 2.0. From what I understand, I don't think I'd want to bother with version 1 because I'd have to unlearn stuff for 2.0. I also don't care if 2.0 doesn't come with complete documentation, as I'd be happy to mess around with it early than wait for the full release to start from scratch with full documentation. In that case, it's rational to buy it now, then not use it (or even install it) until the 2.0 pre-release upgrade rolls out, right?

Di., 01.03.2022 - 12:08 Permalink

You shouldn't take my previous post ("everybody should hurry up...") too seriously. It was just a comment that came up for me, since Andre wrote that only "existing Synfire Pro" users will be able to get the pre-release. 

I don't think I'd want to bother with version 1 because I'd have to unlearn stuff for 2.0. 

That will certainly not be the case. It is safe to assume that all the functions and features of the current version are again included in Synfire 2. In the probably 50 or so minor and not so minor updates that have been released in the last 10 years, I have never seen any feature omitted. There will therefore be no reason, to "unlearn stuff". Only the user interface could change significantly. But the basic concept certainly remains the same.

In an earlier post by Andre, we read that there will be a generous grace period. I would interpret this as that you get the upgrade to version 2 for free if you buy the current version today. But to be on the safe side, you should ask Cognitone about this.

 

Di., 01.03.2022 - 12:23 Permalink

Actually, I had the buy-now-to-use-later thought before I read your post, but then when I read it, I thought it was worth posting that this wasn't just a fun thought, but a plan. I understand about backwards functional compatibility, but the UI looks like a significant part of the learning curve, and 2.0 promises some radical changes (as I read Andre). Since I'd be starting from scratch, I  it looks like simply waiting for 2.0 to begin with Synfire is a good way to go for me because I have plenty of other stuff to do in the meantime even if that's months, and I really don't want to get used to one UI only to have to get unused to it relatively soon after. So if jumping on the purchase now eliminates any guesswork with getting the preview, I'm satisfied to purchase now.

I bought my iLok about 18 months ago, but the 2.0 announcement made me hold off on the actual purchase. I've been checking this thread periodically for 18 months. It's cool because my present "systems" are fine, so I don't feel the anticipation as experienced users do. Meanwhile, I just went to update my iLok email address to purchase immediately, and iLok screwed up the update, so now I'm locked out until they fix me, so I still can't purchase.

Di., 01.03.2022 - 12:39 Permalink

 Since I'd be starting from scratch, I  it looks like simply waiting for 2.0 to begin with Synfire is a good way to go for me because I have plenty of other stuff to do in the meantime even if that's months

Yes, if you don't plan to practice a bit with it right now and get familiar with the concept, then it's certainly better to wait for the official release. In that case, there's no point in buying the software right now. After all, you couldn't do anything with the pre-release without proper documentation.

 

 

Di., 01.03.2022 - 12:43 Permalink

I'm thinking if there's half-documentation--or I have to fly blind--I wouldn't mind messing with it regardless of results. I feel less inspired to mess with version 1. I hope iLok fixes my access soon.

Di., 01.03.2022 - 13:14 Permalink

I feel less inspired to mess with version 1.

I know that there are countless users here who can't wait for version 2 to come out. I must say that I am not one of them. For me, the software can stay exactly as it is. All these phrase generator functions (here called "Factories"), I will probably not use anyway, or at least it must first be subjected to an extremely critical benefit analysis. Experiences from another software, where something similar already exists, show that the results will probably not put me into any special ecstasy. But we will see.

The only new feature (as far as they are currently known) that has really caught my attention is this: 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qx6x6nG3AaY

That's pretty cool, I think 

Di., 01.03.2022 - 14:16 Permalink

Well, to be honest André can finish Synfire 2.0 in its final state as far as I am concerned. 
I am not waiting on Synfire too. 
Its for me as user : let me see what i can accomplish with the new Synfire 2.0.  

Di., 01.03.2022 - 15:40 Permalink

Yeah love the look of the snippet view, very ableton live. Wonder if it will be stable enough to play live, that coupled with manually twiddling knobs on hardware synths would be great for a 'semi' improvised solo performance.

If I was andre I wouldnt be giving pre-release, non documented software to anyone except experienced Pro users, most people have a hard time getting to grips adjusting to the different workflow compared to a DAW even with a stable documented version. I know it took me about 3 goes at getting my head around synfire over about a year, giving up twice before i started to "get it".

Di., 01.03.2022 - 16:31 Permalink

If I was andre I wouldnt be giving pre-release, non documented software to anyone

Plenty of people will not read the documentation even if it exists. 

Di., 01.03.2022 - 16:57 Permalink

The user experience of v2 is so much more accessible and easier to get into than v1, as a first time user I would not begin with v1 anymore this late in the release cycle.

Plenty of people will not read the documentation even if it exists. 

Yep. But the embedded help makes a difference this time. DITA was a godsend. It will be both embedded and online at our site. Plus it will be easy to keep up to date.

The v2 manual/help is also vastly more concise and clear. With the pre-release, there will be sufficient embedded help, so even relatively unexperienced users should get along well. Completely new users though, might want to wait for the first series of tutorial videos.

I'd say, with v2 UX, many basics (sounds, navigation, drag & drop phrases) should finally explain themselves. The real learning curve coming from a DAW is how to use containers, "Keep phrases short" (the first commandmend) and actually arrange something.

Mi., 02.03.2022 - 01:52 Permalink

Will first timers willing to try it without tutorial videos be able to purchase the v2 preview? or will they have to wait for the full release?

Do., 03.03.2022 - 17:07 Permalink

The pre-release will be an upgrade from v1 (requires a v1 license in the account) and v1 will no longer be listed by then.

Mo., 14.03.2022 - 15:48 Permalink

After a pause due to a bout of Covid, I'm back on track to wrap up the pre-release. Thanks to vaccine and booster this was very mild, but I didn't want to risk aggravating the infection or making it worse (long covid, no thanks). So the most sensible thing was to slow down and let the body have all the rest it needed to get rid of the intruders entirely. Interestingly, this has provided a healthy distance from distracting details, so it's easier now to focus on publishing.

The interactive documentation is complete and wired with the application. Pre-release will be English only.

It turned out to be technically impossible to install version 1 and 2 side by side, because there are global components and system identifiers that can't be separated from each other. Switching between two installations involves renaming and moving files, folders and registry entries, a messy procedure that is basically equivalent to backup-install-uninstall-restore, so it's probably safer to do that manually.

The user interface is still slow on M1. We got a preliminary version that is fast enough to be workable (so so) until the final compiler is eventually released. We are completely dependent on the vendor here.

A long todo list is now being checked off, item by item, like reviewing and fixing configuration files, presets and similar routine stuff. We are getting closer.
 

Mo., 14.03.2022 - 20:46 Permalink

Andre, I'm sorry to hear you got sick but glad you are feeling better!  I hope your work goes well.  I would be interested if any snippets of music you generate during the process could be posted in the meantime.  Other than that I'm excited for when things come together eventually!

Mo., 14.03.2022 - 22:47 Permalink

May He in His infinite wisdom, spare the Andre from the lengthy Covid and accelerate His deliverance of the aforementioned Fire of Syn.