Andre wrote: "If a recording is constantly late or early, the take can be shifted manually to match the grid. If it's performed "freely", you're out of luck. You'd need to extract portions and move/stretch them to match the grid, then stich them together again. IMO that's too much effort, unless you have a very specific recording that you want to convert at all cost."
I agree that this is a poor use of my time. There are MIDI sets that are far more accessible, and of course there are always the KIM factories. And besides, I have more such raw material than I can possibly use. I want to make some music, not do data entry and processing all day. The New Age MIDI set will most likely be of use to me only for solo projects in which the phrases don't have to line up with those of any other instruments, or where all instruments are using the same phrase, or variations of the same phrase. In the latter case all instruments will share those timing anomolies.
"Rhythm transfer, as described by Juergen, is not a means to achieve that. It's merely a kind of soft quantization. It doesn't stretch a take or figure as a whole."
@Andre: Can you look back to post #92 and answer my question as to the difference (if any) between the two methods of adjusting a figure's rhythm? Thanks.
"Workflow discussions about a topic like this are valuable. I'm always happy when they come up. That's what this forum was made for. It's a shame that discussions get lost inside some obscure (and often unrelated) thread over time."
I'm pleased that you find this discussion valuable, although I have to admit that right from the start I've been aware that I have caused it to veer off topic, or at least contributed to this. To that degree I have been somewhat reluctant to continue it. My (and a few others') discussion of third party MIDI sets is completely unrelated to the original subject line. As you said, such discussions tend to get lost, making this forum less useful. Over the years I've noticed that meandering threads such as this one are common on this forum.
Many other forums have volunteer moderators that would break off such a conversation into its own thread in a more appropriate sub-forum.
Also, you (Andre) mentioned wanting to encourage members to post their original compositions. I've done that a few times, but have always wondered if it was really appropriate. I don't recall seeing a sub-forum specifically for that purpose, and have never been sure where to post my music. I've always wondered if others would view it as spam. The few times I've posted my music I have seen almost no response, leaving me to wonder if no one listened to it or if perhaps people hated it and are reluctant to say so.
A dedicated sub-forum specifically intended to showcase members' music would no doubt bring Cognitone new customers. It would give non-Synfire users a much better idea of what can be achieved by using Synfire.
"Paste Rhythm" is very different from pasting something into the Rhythm parameter. The former applies the steps of the input to the target parameter sequentially (which can dramatically stretch or shrink it as a result), while the latter creates an averaged Rhythm pattern (1m length) from the input internally and applies that as a soft quantization (which doesn't change overall length).
Over the years I've noticed that meandering threads such as this one are common on this forum.
That's the fault of the medium, not its users (there's no way for a moderator to split threads, for example).
I envision a profile page for every user where they can show and discuss their work and attach a tag that leads others to these pages, e.g. when looking for "Workflow" or "Examples". Under each post users can respond and link to their own work, etc. A moderator can attach additional tags where useful and over time we'll get a network of ideas, people, workflows and music examples.
The few times I've posted my music I have seen almost no response, leaving me to wonder if no one listened to it or if perhaps people hated it and are reluctant to say so.
Same for my posts, by the way. Music is subjective and styles are very fragmented. It is rare that a work in progress meets exactly someone's taste. Most users may be clueless about a certain style and thus hesitating. Also, if you just finished something, chances are you are overconfident and enthusiastic and unable to experience it like a first time listener anymore. I've got some pieces here that, after a week or so of waiting, I'm glad I never posted ;-)
We should probably talk more about HOW a work was made, rather than just post a piece of music. That puts the focus on the workflow and the tools, which is something people are more comfortable talking about.
"Also, if you just finished something, chances are you are overconfident and enthusiastic and unable to experience it like a first time listener anymore. I've got some pieces here that, after a week or so of waiting, I'm glad I never posted ;-)"
Been there; done that. :)
"We should probably talk more about HOW a work was made, rather than just post a piece of music. That puts the focus on the workflow and the tools, which is something people are more comfortable talking about."
I've generally tried to add at least a bit of that when posting my music, so that it becomes a sort of tutorial. I might by chance mention a workflow or feature that some reader was unaware of.
<We should probably talk more about HOW a work was made, rather than just post a piece of music. That puts the focus on the workflow and the tools, which is something people are more comfortable talking about.>
Unfortunately the way an orchestral professional music is created for movies, etc in a DAW is not yet possible for Synfire.
Would like a bit more help Janamdo, I've watched about 12 videos so far mostly from the tips and tricks playlist.and I'm struggling to find anything that describes a way of composing. The video's ive watched have either been play throughs of tracks, about eq/mixing, sound sets/instruments 'reviews', midi libraries, track layout templates or something about specific cubase features (that are common to most Daws and synfire) such as swing. Which videos should I be watching to learn 'a way of composing' that is incompatible with synfire?
I've posted a song (to my OneDrive account) based on the PG Music New Age Pianist MIDI set that some of us were discussing recently. I wanted to see if I could do anything worthwhile with MIDI that's not on a grid...in other words, played freely.
I randomly chose a song called Spring from the set, and imported the MIDI into Synfire. The original song is in G, but Synfire decided it was in Gm, which is fine with me so long as the new chords make sense, which they do. I often actually prefer that Synfire make such changes.
I then visually scanned the import, chose a couple of sections that seemed to be likely candidates, and started working with them in Synfire. I used two sounds in Omnisphere...Starfield Piano, and Trionic Force Flow Sustain. The first doesn't always sound like a piano, more like a baritone guitar (on the low notes anyway). The second is the choir. I used only the A layer, because the B layer had too much noise.
I have a library of various chord progressions, and I checked out several to see how they worked with the phrases, but decided the chords Synfire chose as part of the import process worked best.
I worked on the figures extensively (and later on the MIDI in Cubase), adding & deleting notes, changing pitches, lengths and velocities. Altogether I devoted an inordinate amount of time to this project.
My working title for this was Sprung (ha-ha). But I changed it to Coda, because the music seems right for a scene where everything has been resolved, in this case with tragic consequences. For example, the battle is over and the camera is panning a battlefield littered with corpses. It could also work under credits following such a scene.
I'd say the lack of a time grid definitely added to the expressiveness of this piece.
I've also posted 30 seconds or so of the original song. In comparing Spring and Coda you'll definitely hear a similarity, but also major differences.
I consider the tiny bit of the original song which I posted to be fair use, but the nagging question is...Am I violating copyright with Coda? After all, it's clearly derivative, yet if I hadn't pointed out its source, no one would have ever made the connection...It's that different from the source material.
If you listen to Coda on laptop speakers etc, you may not hear all of the low notes.
I can't provide legal advice, but as far as I can tell Coda is your own work. Derivative work likely means a different thing, e.g. if you create a library or tool that others could use to make music.
The phrases are also very simple. You can probably stretch them to roughly fit a grid. There is a clear beat, although with pauses in between.
<I consider the tiny bit of the original song which I posted to be fair use, but the nagging question is...Am I violating copyright with Coda? After all, it's clearly derivative, yet if I hadn't pointed out its source, no one would have ever made the connection...It's that different from the source material.>
Now if you change one note in it you can say that you didn't copy the original piece of piano music.
Is that an idea?
With the chords you can make some question and answer progressions in this relaxing coda song?
That was my favorite composition tool before I had Synfire. Unfortunately, it has not been maintained for over 10 years. The first thing I do after updating to a new OS version is to test if Onyx Arranger is still working.
But nowadays I actually only use its MIDI effects processor called "Modeler". There are hundreds of algorithms available (each of them tweakable with multiple parameters) to spice up boring midi patterns. Something comparable does not exist in Synfire, unfortunately. But who knows, maybe there will be an update for the "Variation" parameter some day.
@Andre: I agree Coda is my own work. In its finished form it has only a very tenuous connection to Spring. Also, I like the fact that the original MIDI was played freely, and wouldn't want to try to fit it to a grid. I agree that I probably could, but it would be time consuming and the end result would be worse than it was at the start.
@janamdo: In my opinion if I had changed only one note I would be infringing. But in Coda I changed many pitches. And of course the entire chord progression is different, meaning that Synfire changed many or most of the pitches before I even got to the editing stage. Also, I don't plan to devote further time to this project. I learned several things in producing it and am fairly happy with it the way it is, so it's time to move on.
@juergen: Onyx Arranger looks interesting. I see they have a 21-day trial version, so I'm going to check it out. I do have concerns that I might be buying soon-to-be outmoded software, but it looks like there's still someone there to maintain the website...and of course to collect the money.
Before I got to where I could use Synfire in even a rudimentary fashion, I did some work with a program called Orb Composer. But it pales in comparison to Synfire. Not even close. Not even in the same universe.
Edit: I want to add that the "inordinate amount of time" I spent on this project was not the fault of Synfire, but rather my own propensity for making various mistakes in Cubase.
<Before I got to where I could use Synfire in even a rudimentary fashion, I did some work with a program called Orb Composer. But it pales in comparison to Synfire. Not even close. Not even in the same universe. >
Seems so nice that ORB will compose everything for you.
He does to a certain extent
Requires quite a bit of musical creativity from what I've seen and it can be used to make nice songs.
Unfortunately you really have to immerse yourself in the ORB program to get results, because that is my impression of ORB composer.
@juergen: Onyx Arranger looks interesting. I see they have a 21-day trial version, so I'm going to check it out. I do have concerns that I might be buying soon-to-be outmoded software, but it looks like there's still someone there to maintain the website...and of course to collect the money.
You should not take my post as a recommendation. This is not a "soon-to-be outmoded" software. It IS already outdated for many years. But I can confirm that it still runs on Win 10 at least.
@janamdo: I guess it's a case of "not enough hours in a day." If I'm going to spend the time to learn a program, I want one that's really deep, one that I'll never outgrow. For me, that's Synfire. I've found it to be immensely rewarding. Orb Composer is much more limited.
@juergen: I noticed on the NTONYX website that they list their software as being compatible with Windows 11, so someone is there behind the curtain. Anyway, I had heard of them years ago, but forgot to check them out. I understand that your mention of them is not a recommendation, but I thank you anyway. I can use the trial for 21 days and make up my own mind.
Edit: The NTONYX software would of course be an adjunct to Synfire. I'm hoping it will give me enhanced ability to process MIDI files in a musical way. If so, they would most likely end up in a Synfire library and one or more projects.
Who knows, maybe something unique will come out of the ntonyx composer?
Hopefully it will be properly imported into Synfire.
Am curious what you are composing with it though.
Definitely still interested in ORB composer as well
In Synfire you import a piano midi, while in ORB you have separate piano parts: melody, arpeggio, chords and bass.
With this you could make a piano accompaniment, but this can also be done in Synfire.
Edit: The NTONYX software would of course be an adjunct to Synfire. I'm hoping it will give me enhanced ability to process MIDI files in a musical way. If so, they would most likely end up in a Synfire library and one or more projects.
That's what I did too. I imported all of the so called "OOStyles" (which are basically multi instrument orchestrations for different musical styles) into Synfire and made Synfire-Sketches from them. Took me several weeks of work. But now I have an extensive Sketches library and can use Synfire as a Band-in-a-Box substitute, so to speak, when needed.
But much more interesting than the "OOStyles" are the "PMStyles". These are algorithms for the included MIDI FX plugin called "Modeler" I mentioned above. These styles can't be imported into Synfire, of course, because it's a MIDI effect, and what it produces depends on the MIDI input material. There are many different MIDI effect plugins on the market (and some, like arpeggiators, are usually included with a DAW), but still nothing even remotely compares to this Modeler effect. That's the main reason, why I still use this software. For everything else (like harmonizing, structuring a song, etc.) you'd better use Synfire.
@janamdo: I spent a few hours today checking out the NTONYX software, specifically their Arranger. I'll probably come back to it at some point, but right now I think my time is better spent becoming more proficient with Synfire. I'm not saying the Arranger is unviable or not worth looking into, but I'm just now starting to know my way around Synfire, and I don't want to get distracted.
I've used Orb Composer in a few projects, but thought the results were more likely to feel stiff compared to those of Synfire. And it just doesn't have the range of options that Synfire does.
I have to admit that I've never used Synfire's Sketch feature.
Would you be willing to post a downloadable Sketch file (just one), so I can see how a Sketch derived from the ONYX Arranger functions in Synfire?
It occurs to me that those sketches within Synfire will still function even if the Arranger software at some point no longer does.
Re the Modeler: Does this come into play only after you export MIDI from Synfire into your DAW? Do you then export the Synfire MIDI from your DAW into Modeler when you think it will result in a better performance in some way, and then import the resulting Modeler MIDI into your DAW?
And am I correct that Modeler can only be used within Arranger, and that Arranger is standalone only and not a plugin?
Also, I use a PC, and have concerns re MIDI device conflicts. IOW Arranger will want to use my MIDI ports, but Synfire will already be using them.
As for the Modeler: Imagine a situation, where you work on a phrase in Synfire. The phrase sounds ok but not very exiting. What can you do now? You can keep on working at the phrase manually until it sounds enough interesting. Or you try out the Variation parameter of Synfire and see what it produces. For me, at this point the Modeler effect of Onyx Aranger comes into play. I export the phrase as a MIDI file, import it into Onyx Arranger and try out some Modeler algorithms to enhance the phrase. Which usually gives pretty nice results. Then I export the enhanced phrase again from there as MIDI an re-import it in Synfire to continue the work on the composition with the new improved phrase.
Edit: I now realized that I even posted a demo video of the Modeler effect a "few years" ago. Check out this thread:
You're right that all that software distracts you from Synfire.
Only for me then is phrase generation interesting
Ntonyx can provide this or even Yamaha styles which I have also used sometimes because then you have whole blocks.
Orb composer seems to be a hopeless story still, but there would be an update: ORB orchestra ?
In the thread of @ Juergen I found my link to Nodal
Nicest is a VST phrase generator in Synfire, from which midi can be pulled into Synfire
After this, it can be translated in Synfire.
Unfortunately, no Chatgpt for music alone has been developed yet.
I would like a strumming guitar with soft violin music in the background as example.
The intro is minimal and later add new instruments...
You should then describe exactly what you want to achieve musically and the AI should then go along with this.
Note: fascinating to ask ChatGPT for his inner working, as i did some questions.
Comments
Wed, 2023-04-19 - 13:11 Permalink
lol..
Ludwig composer is of German origin and could perhaps be useful for slip composing to get complete blocks of music and start combining them.
Looked at it years ago and now with @Juergen's recommendation , maybe worth revisiting?
Music Software Ludwig: Automatic Arranging, Composing and Songwriting. Royalty Free Music. (write-music.com)
Wed, 2023-04-19 - 18:41 Permalink
Andre wrote: "If a recording is constantly late or early, the take can be shifted manually to match the grid. If it's performed "freely", you're out of luck. You'd need to extract portions and move/stretch them to match the grid, then stich them together again. IMO that's too much effort, unless you have a very specific recording that you want to convert at all cost."
I agree that this is a poor use of my time. There are MIDI sets that are far more accessible, and of course there are always the KIM factories. And besides, I have more such raw material than I can possibly use. I want to make some music, not do data entry and processing all day. The New Age MIDI set will most likely be of use to me only for solo projects in which the phrases don't have to line up with those of any other instruments, or where all instruments are using the same phrase, or variations of the same phrase. In the latter case all instruments will share those timing anomolies.
"Rhythm transfer, as described by Juergen, is not a means to achieve that. It's merely a kind of soft quantization. It doesn't stretch a take or figure as a whole."
@Andre: Can you look back to post #92 and answer my question as to the difference (if any) between the two methods of adjusting a figure's rhythm? Thanks.
"Workflow discussions about a topic like this are valuable. I'm always happy when they come up. That's what this forum was made for. It's a shame that discussions get lost inside some obscure (and often unrelated) thread over time."
I'm pleased that you find this discussion valuable, although I have to admit that right from the start I've been aware that I have caused it to veer off topic, or at least contributed to this. To that degree I have been somewhat reluctant to continue it. My (and a few others') discussion of third party MIDI sets is completely unrelated to the original subject line. As you said, such discussions tend to get lost, making this forum less useful. Over the years I've noticed that meandering threads such as this one are common on this forum.
Many other forums have volunteer moderators that would break off such a conversation into its own thread in a more appropriate sub-forum.
Also, you (Andre) mentioned wanting to encourage members to post their original compositions. I've done that a few times, but have always wondered if it was really appropriate. I don't recall seeing a sub-forum specifically for that purpose, and have never been sure where to post my music. I've always wondered if others would view it as spam. The few times I've posted my music I have seen almost no response, leaving me to wonder if no one listened to it or if perhaps people hated it and are reluctant to say so.
A dedicated sub-forum specifically intended to showcase members' music would no doubt bring Cognitone new customers. It would give non-Synfire users a much better idea of what can be achieved by using Synfire.
Wed, 2023-04-19 - 19:36 Permalink
"Paste Rhythm" is very different from pasting something into the Rhythm parameter. The former applies the steps of the input to the target parameter sequentially (which can dramatically stretch or shrink it as a result), while the latter creates an averaged Rhythm pattern (1m length) from the input internally and applies that as a soft quantization (which doesn't change overall length).
That's the fault of the medium, not its users (there's no way for a moderator to split threads, for example).
I envision a profile page for every user where they can show and discuss their work and attach a tag that leads others to these pages, e.g. when looking for "Workflow" or "Examples". Under each post users can respond and link to their own work, etc. A moderator can attach additional tags where useful and over time we'll get a network of ideas, people, workflows and music examples.
Same for my posts, by the way. Music is subjective and styles are very fragmented. It is rare that a work in progress meets exactly someone's taste. Most users may be clueless about a certain style and thus hesitating. Also, if you just finished something, chances are you are overconfident and enthusiastic and unable to experience it like a first time listener anymore. I've got some pieces here that, after a week or so of waiting, I'm glad I never posted ;-)
We should probably talk more about HOW a work was made, rather than just post a piece of music. That puts the focus on the workflow and the tools, which is something people are more comfortable talking about.
Wed, 2023-04-19 - 19:57 Permalink
@Andre: Thank you for your informative response.
"Also, if you just finished something, chances are you are overconfident and enthusiastic and unable to experience it like a first time listener anymore. I've got some pieces here that, after a week or so of waiting, I'm glad I never posted ;-)"
Been there; done that. :)
"We should probably talk more about HOW a work was made, rather than just post a piece of music. That puts the focus on the workflow and the tools, which is something people are more comfortable talking about."
I've generally tried to add at least a bit of that when posting my music, so that it becomes a sort of tutorial. I might by chance mention a workflow or feature that some reader was unaware of.
Sat, 2023-04-22 - 11:47 Permalink
There's currently a crash when MIDI file import is aborted (Cancel button). This will be fixed with next build.
Sat, 2023-04-22 - 14:08 Permalink
<We should probably talk more about HOW a work was made, rather than just post a piece of music. That puts the focus on the workflow and the tools, which is something people are more comfortable talking about.>
Unfortunately the way an orchestral professional music is created for movies, etc in a DAW is not yet possible for Synfire.
If you want to get an idea of the way of composing i am talking about look at the examples here:
(https://www.composingtips.com/home)
Nicolas Schuele - YouTube
@Nico can't read and play piano notes.. lol
Sat, 2023-04-22 - 18:02 Permalink
Would like a bit more help Janamdo, I've watched about 12 videos so far mostly from the tips and tricks playlist.and I'm struggling to find anything that describes a way of composing. The video's ive watched have either been play throughs of tracks, about eq/mixing, sound sets/instruments 'reviews', midi libraries, track layout templates or something about specific cubase features (that are common to most Daws and synfire) such as swing. Which videos should I be watching to learn 'a way of composing' that is incompatible with synfire?
Sat, 2023-04-22 - 18:56 Permalink
Yes, found one Live Composing: Finding inspiration with automatic sketching (composingtips.com)
How to write with ensemble patches (composingtips.com)
Sun, 2023-04-23 - 01:05 Permalink
Perhaps there's something at https://vi-control.net/community/forums/composition-orchestration-technique.13/ that might be useful.
Perhaps this could be a new thread ...
Sun, 2023-04-23 - 11:20 Permalink
Yes, please. It's a wonderful topic to explore and share experiences. It deserves its own thread.
Sun, 2023-04-23 - 22:00 Permalink
NTONYX. Intelligent Music Software.
Can be used with softsynth : see the free software from onyx arranger
Perhaps for prototyping to use?
Mon, 2023-04-24 - 01:57 Permalink
Coda
I've posted a song (to my OneDrive account) based on the PG Music New Age Pianist MIDI set that some of us were discussing recently. I wanted to see if I could do anything worthwhile with MIDI that's not on a grid...in other words, played freely.
I randomly chose a song called Spring from the set, and imported the MIDI into Synfire. The original song is in G, but Synfire decided it was in Gm, which is fine with me so long as the new chords make sense, which they do. I often actually prefer that Synfire make such changes.
I then visually scanned the import, chose a couple of sections that seemed to be likely candidates, and started working with them in Synfire. I used two sounds in Omnisphere...Starfield Piano, and Trionic Force Flow Sustain. The first doesn't always sound like a piano, more like a baritone guitar (on the low notes anyway). The second is the choir. I used only the A layer, because the B layer had too much noise.
I have a library of various chord progressions, and I checked out several to see how they worked with the phrases, but decided the chords Synfire chose as part of the import process worked best.
I worked on the figures extensively (and later on the MIDI in Cubase), adding & deleting notes, changing pitches, lengths and velocities. Altogether I devoted an inordinate amount of time to this project.
My working title for this was Sprung (ha-ha). But I changed it to Coda, because the music seems right for a scene where everything has been resolved, in this case with tragic consequences. For example, the battle is over and the camera is panning a battlefield littered with corpses. It could also work under credits following such a scene.
I'd say the lack of a time grid definitely added to the expressiveness of this piece.
I've also posted 30 seconds or so of the original song. In comparing Spring and Coda you'll definitely hear a similarity, but also major differences.
I consider the tiny bit of the original song which I posted to be fair use, but the nagging question is...Am I violating copyright with Coda? After all, it's clearly derivative, yet if I hadn't pointed out its source, no one would have ever made the connection...It's that different from the source material.
If you listen to Coda on laptop speakers etc, you may not hear all of the low notes.
Thanks for listening.
Mon, 2023-04-24 - 08:10 Permalink
I can't provide legal advice, but as far as I can tell Coda is your own work. Derivative work likely means a different thing, e.g. if you create a library or tool that others could use to make music.
The phrases are also very simple. You can probably stretch them to roughly fit a grid. There is a clear beat, although with pauses in between.
Mon, 2023-04-24 - 10:34 Permalink
<I consider the tiny bit of the original song which I posted to be fair use, but the nagging question is...Am I violating copyright with Coda? After all, it's clearly derivative, yet if I hadn't pointed out its source, no one would have ever made the connection...It's that different from the source material.>
Now if you change one note in it you can say that you didn't copy the original piece of piano music.
Is that an idea?
With the chords you can make some question and answer progressions in this relaxing coda song?
Mon, 2023-04-24 - 11:45 Permalink
That was my favorite composition tool before I had Synfire. Unfortunately, it has not been maintained for over 10 years. The first thing I do after updating to a new OS version is to test if Onyx Arranger is still working.
But nowadays I actually only use its MIDI effects processor called "Modeler". There are hundreds of algorithms available (each of them tweakable with multiple parameters) to spice up boring midi patterns. Something comparable does not exist in Synfire, unfortunately. But who knows, maybe there will be an update for the "Variation" parameter some day.
Mon, 2023-04-24 - 18:02 Permalink
@Andre: I agree Coda is my own work. In its finished form it has only a very tenuous connection to Spring. Also, I like the fact that the original MIDI was played freely, and wouldn't want to try to fit it to a grid. I agree that I probably could, but it would be time consuming and the end result would be worse than it was at the start.
@janamdo: In my opinion if I had changed only one note I would be infringing. But in Coda I changed many pitches. And of course the entire chord progression is different, meaning that Synfire changed many or most of the pitches before I even got to the editing stage. Also, I don't plan to devote further time to this project. I learned several things in producing it and am fairly happy with it the way it is, so it's time to move on.
@juergen: Onyx Arranger looks interesting. I see they have a 21-day trial version, so I'm going to check it out. I do have concerns that I might be buying soon-to-be outmoded software, but it looks like there's still someone there to maintain the website...and of course to collect the money.
Before I got to where I could use Synfire in even a rudimentary fashion, I did some work with a program called Orb Composer. But it pales in comparison to Synfire. Not even close. Not even in the same universe.
Edit: I want to add that the "inordinate amount of time" I spent on this project was not the fault of Synfire, but rather my own propensity for making various mistakes in Cubase.
Mon, 2023-04-24 - 19:40 Permalink
<Before I got to where I could use Synfire in even a rudimentary fashion, I did some work with a program called Orb Composer. But it pales in comparison to Synfire. Not even close. Not even in the same universe. >
Seems so nice that ORB will compose everything for you.
He does to a certain extent
Requires quite a bit of musical creativity from what I've seen and it can be used to make nice songs.
Unfortunately you really have to immerse yourself in the ORB program to get results, because that is my impression of ORB composer.
Mon, 2023-04-24 - 19:42 Permalink
You should not take my post as a recommendation. This is not a "soon-to-be outmoded" software. It IS already outdated for many years. But I can confirm that it still runs on Win 10 at least.
Mon, 2023-04-24 - 23:09 Permalink
@janamdo: I guess it's a case of "not enough hours in a day." If I'm going to spend the time to learn a program, I want one that's really deep, one that I'll never outgrow. For me, that's Synfire. I've found it to be immensely rewarding. Orb Composer is much more limited.
@juergen: I noticed on the NTONYX website that they list their software as being compatible with Windows 11, so someone is there behind the curtain. Anyway, I had heard of them years ago, but forgot to check them out. I understand that your mention of them is not a recommendation, but I thank you anyway. I can use the trial for 21 days and make up my own mind.
Edit: The NTONYX software would of course be an adjunct to Synfire. I'm hoping it will give me enhanced ability to process MIDI files in a musical way. If so, they would most likely end up in a Synfire library and one or more projects.
Tue, 2023-04-25 - 09:37 Permalink
@The Artist..
Who knows, maybe something unique will come out of the ntonyx composer?
Hopefully it will be properly imported into Synfire.
Am curious what you are composing with it though.
Definitely still interested in ORB composer as well
In Synfire you import a piano midi, while in ORB you have separate piano parts: melody, arpeggio, chords and bass.
With this you could make a piano accompaniment, but this can also be done in Synfire.
Tue, 2023-04-25 - 11:00 Permalink
That's what I did too. I imported all of the so called "OOStyles" (which are basically multi instrument orchestrations for different musical styles) into Synfire and made Synfire-Sketches from them. Took me several weeks of work. But now I have an extensive Sketches library and can use Synfire as a Band-in-a-Box substitute, so to speak, when needed.
But much more interesting than the "OOStyles" are the "PMStyles". These are algorithms for the included MIDI FX plugin called "Modeler" I mentioned above. These styles can't be imported into Synfire, of course, because it's a MIDI effect, and what it produces depends on the MIDI input material. There are many different MIDI effect plugins on the market (and some, like arpeggiators, are usually included with a DAW), but still nothing even remotely compares to this Modeler effect. That's the main reason, why I still use this software. For everything else (like harmonizing, structuring a song, etc.) you'd better use Synfire.
Wed, 2023-04-26 - 00:59 Permalink
@janamdo: I spent a few hours today checking out the NTONYX software, specifically their Arranger. I'll probably come back to it at some point, but right now I think my time is better spent becoming more proficient with Synfire. I'm not saying the Arranger is unviable or not worth looking into, but I'm just now starting to know my way around Synfire, and I don't want to get distracted.
I've used Orb Composer in a few projects, but thought the results were more likely to feel stiff compared to those of Synfire. And it just doesn't have the range of options that Synfire does.
Wed, 2023-04-26 - 02:27 Permalink
@juergen: All very interesting.
I have to admit that I've never used Synfire's Sketch feature.
Would you be willing to post a downloadable Sketch file (just one), so I can see how a Sketch derived from the ONYX Arranger functions in Synfire?
It occurs to me that those sketches within Synfire will still function even if the Arranger software at some point no longer does.
Re the Modeler: Does this come into play only after you export MIDI from Synfire into your DAW? Do you then export the Synfire MIDI from your DAW into Modeler when you think it will result in a better performance in some way, and then import the resulting Modeler MIDI into your DAW?
And am I correct that Modeler can only be used within Arranger, and that Arranger is standalone only and not a plugin?
Also, I use a PC, and have concerns re MIDI device conflicts. IOW Arranger will want to use my MIDI ports, but Synfire will already be using them.
Wed, 2023-04-26 - 07:10 Permalink
@TheArtist..
I will post one of theses Sketches in a few days.
As for the Modeler: Imagine a situation, where you work on a phrase in Synfire. The phrase sounds ok but not very exiting. What can you do now? You can keep on working at the phrase manually until it sounds enough interesting. Or you try out the Variation parameter of Synfire and see what it produces. For me, at this point the Modeler effect of Onyx Aranger comes into play. I export the phrase as a MIDI file, import it into Onyx Arranger and try out some Modeler algorithms to enhance the phrase. Which usually gives pretty nice results. Then I export the enhanced phrase again from there as MIDI an re-import it in Synfire to continue the work on the composition with the new improved phrase.
Edit: I now realized that I even posted a demo video of the Modeler effect a "few years" ago. Check out this thread:
https://users.cognitone.com/topic/generators
Wed, 2023-04-26 - 09:39 Permalink
@The Artist..
You're right that all that software distracts you from Synfire.
Only for me then is phrase generation interesting
Ntonyx can provide this or even Yamaha styles which I have also used sometimes because then you have whole blocks.
Orb composer seems to be a hopeless story still, but there would be an update: ORB orchestra ?
In the thread of @ Juergen I found my link to Nodal
Never delved into it , will have a look, but must have a midi export
Wed, 2023-04-26 - 10:17 Permalink
You could also take a look at what the latest VST phrase generators have to offer these days?
-Embrays Designs - 100 Presets - Venomode Phrasebox (gumroad.com)
Venomode | Phrasebox
FeelYourSound
Nicest is a VST phrase generator in Synfire, from which midi can be pulled into Synfire
After this, it can be translated in Synfire.
Unfortunately, no Chatgpt for music alone has been developed yet.
I would like a strumming guitar with soft violin music in the background as example.
The intro is minimal and later add new instruments...
You should then describe exactly what you want to achieve musically and the AI should then go along with this.
Note: fascinating to ask ChatGPT for his inner working, as i did some questions.
Wed, 2023-04-26 - 22:04 Permalink
I feel like I'm drowning in a sea of options, but I guess that's better than having NO options.
I plan to buy the Arranger software. The video juergen posted convinced me of its utility.
But again, it will be an adjunct to Synfire, which will always have center stage.