Posted
No, the headline is not supposed to be the title, but this is what has emerged within one hour yesterday, plus another hour this afternoon (a revision of what I had briefly posted yesterday).
This came up while I was collecting ideas how workflows could be improved (hint: there are some, but they will be addressed later).
This is really just a fragment that I thought was worth sharing, because it demonstrates how little is needed to get something started that may entice your curiosity and (if I had the time) could be worked on further. I have no formal training in this genre, so I share this at the risk of embarrassing myself.
I very much like the harmony changes. If you ever wondered what the progression "Edgy Oriental" could be used for, this is an example. The two build-ups are factory-generated progressions "Cinematic A" and "Cinematic B". Both were transposed to match (the progressions will be listed in the Preview parameter menu, next build). The last modulation is a random 4-bar progression transposed to Bb Major.
Find the file attached in case someone wants to look inside.
ex-2.mp3
Mon, 2023-12-11 - 17:20 Permalink
Somehow the workflow always starts slow. I am dropping stuff and shifting it around until something "clicks" and triggers an idea. Around that something, I begin placing other stuff. I have a knack for slow melodies that ascend across parts like the oboe here (containers), so I do that. Add some faster melodies (*2) that complement them, also not necessarily 100% inside a container (overlapping).
Then I start inserting other harmony. Duplicating melodies and stacking them until the interval sounds best. Trying to meet different intervals of the chord. Deleting (many) notes to avoid clashes.
And then suddenly, exactly when there is enough critical mass to play with, I experience a kind of Cambrian Explosion. I make aliases and shove them to not so obvious places. This is what happened with the last modulation here. It was a surprise. Beautiful intervals and different melodies emerged. The harmonies this hints at are really shining through. It could start a whole new, much brighter section ...
Lacking the time and expertise though, this will probably remain a pile of ideas without a consistent narrative. If anyone wants to make their hands dirty, feel free to download the file and do whatever comes to your mind (and share it with us).
Mon, 2023-12-11 - 19:05 Permalink
Just some gut feeling, not based on actual analysis, but for me this feels like some kind of development section that follows a someone simpler section, which is based on the presented pool of figures, but more affirmative (?) / repetitive, and likely with a simpler harmony (e.g., less chord changes). The ending of what you presented feels to me like a short transition that could then again lead to a reprise of the simpler section.
Anyway, just some spontaneous gut reaction...
Mon, 2023-12-11 - 19:18 Permalink
Good point. This "Edgy Oriental" progression yearns for resolution. It's full of tension. Not a good thing to start with ;-)
Yes, I tend to jump right into the middle immediately. That's a common trap I would think. As you are previewing phrases all the time, you get used to them. That's kind of a "hidden" preparation. A new listener didn't have that.
Mon, 2023-12-11 - 20:13 Permalink
a "hidden" preparation
Ah, yes that makes sense ;-)
It's full of tension. Not a good thing to start with ;-)
On the other hand, I guess some harmonic tension in itself is perhaps not such a bad thing at the beginning (ex: beginning of Beethoven's 1st symphony, though that is a slow intro, quasi the beginning before the actual beginning, again perhaps a special case).
Tue, 2023-12-12 - 19:35 Permalink
Well, as expected, this thing doesn't work any more after 24 hours. I mean, not at all. All the things that I thought were beautiful are completely lost now. The melodies don't work, the harmony changes don't move as originally intended. It has fallen apart.
And I am a "prepared" listener that merely moved a few inches closer to an "unprepared" one.
Ok, I could listen to it a couple times again and they will probably come back, but that's not how music is supposed to work. The goal is that at least 50% come across on first pass.
I refuse to accept that the only way to create something that "works" is to follow a cliché or a well-trodden path. When spontaneous imagination is so prone to leading you astray, wow. I guess I have a lot to learn if I wanted to tame that kind of creativity. In any case, you can't rely at all on the fact that the experiences you have while composing will come out even rudimentarily in the end.
This is such a frustrating experience. It must have a name. How's it called? Composer bias? Creator delusion?
Tue, 2023-12-12 - 20:10 Permalink
I would like to point out that this is not Synfire's fault. Quite the opposite. Only Synfire made it possible for me to create a sketch like this in just two hours. Just imagine what would have happened if I had spent several days working on it manually, note by note. The frustration would have been devastating.
It's the man in front of the screen who's to blame :-)
Tue, 2023-12-12 - 20:36 Permalink
not Synfire's fault. Quite the opposite.
I agree 100%. Synfire allows for a very wide range of musical languages incl. pretty much all popular styles (basically anything based on underlying harmonic progressions , and even what that means is largely user-definable, as long as it can be based on 12 pitch classes).
What I like about Synfire is that it mainly speeds up the workflow of the composition process (if you ignore the time spend on the learning curve). Synfire users basically make musical decisions on a much higher level than when directly writing by hand, and users are free to make the musical decisions that really matter.
It's the man in front of the screen who's to blame :-)
No reason to actually blame.
I feel it is a sketch that has potential, and it was much quicker realised than it would have been by hand. With Synfire, you get more quickly to the moment where you make small scale or indeed drastic refinements (incl. a complete rearrangement of the available materials). And again, doing such refinements is much more quickly with Synfire than by hand.
Thu, 2023-12-14 - 10:24 Permalink
I would like to point out that this is not Synfire's fault.
Of course you can't blame Synfire for this effect, but I think it has indeed a bit to do with it. Because Synfire regularly provides you with some unexpected and surprising "Oh, wow" moments that can easily put you in a slightly euphoric state. The next day, when the euphoria has faded a little, you'll have a much more realistic view of things and then you may realize that yesterday's work is perhaps not bad, but also not quite as sensational as you thought. Which of course can be a bit disappointing.
Thu, 2023-12-14 - 15:32 Permalink
HI, I am more a painter artist than musician. I have experience from both side that the day after it don’t look good or sound good. My thought a about that is that you start from something simple and start built slowly and most at time things get better. Just that things gets better you lose judgement. Day after you see or hear better because of distance and lost of memory of what did. I hope my english is enough to understant what I mean.
Thu, 2023-12-14 - 16:42 Permalink
Many years ago I did all my music manually. It is true that the risk of veering too far off is lower, but you also come up with a lot of clichés and stereotypes and boring or cheesy stuff. Not everyone is a genius. I rather prefer a bit of creative chaos from which I can pick the things I like best, than being confined to my current manual capabilities.
I think the key is: Kill your darlings. You must not be afraid of deleting stuff that's simply too much or not in the right place. Maybe put it aside in a library.
It's the same with writing. Painting is more difficult to "undo" but I think the urge to start over is not uncommon.
It begins to dawn on me what's wrong with this arrangement. Some important changes are unmotivated (not properly prepared for) and not established enough to have the desired effect. After every suspense, there is a range of possible "surprises" that will "work". If a change is too sudden or outside this range, (or too short) it won't work.
Thu, 2023-12-14 - 18:25 Permalink
It is constant alternation of action fragments and too much of it feels chaotic.
Also different instruments.
It does have a rest point and then it starts all over again.
Would it work for an action film if there were more of a repetitive structure to the action fragments and fewer instruments?
Then if you want to stay on the classical track, listening to classical music becomes a source of information about how one thing is performed another.
Fri, 2023-12-15 - 09:19 Permalink
Yes, it is too ambitious on too many levels (chaos).
Here's the plain progression in open voicing auto-chords. It's full of tension, then lightens up, and gets back to tension, etc. It's rough at times, but I still like it overall. Tanders is right: The tension in the beginning is actually already somewhere in the middle of a drama. It's a very bad opener.
The 2nd MP3 is the full enchilada, pizza with everything, mustard and rusty nails: The auto-chords progression overlaid with the instruments. Beware - it's hefty. Kind of Rorschach test. I listen to it from a distance, sensing the melodies that come up in my head, and will replace them next.
ex-3.mp3
ex-3-2.mp3
Fri, 2023-12-15 - 10:14 Permalink
I think the key is: Kill your darlings. You must not be afraid of deleting stuff
Totally agree with that. But that not only applies to individual parts of a work but also for the entire work.
For me, the moment of truth comes at the latest after two days of work. How much time have you spent on this now?
Sat, 2023-12-16 - 18:50 Permalink
I played around a bit with this ex-2.cognac arrangement to see what an intro part for it might be like. This is what came out. Only original phrases with a few modifications are used. Of course the instrumentation is different, because I don't have these VSL Prime sounds. I haven't done anything orchestral for ages, so you can't expect to hear miracles.
The progression from the original root container is not introduced at the beginning, but only from bar 20 (00:40 s). I think that's better preparation for the listener.
ex2-intro.mp3
Sun, 2023-12-17 - 19:53 Permalink
Nice! It took me a few listens to get used to the sounds, but it's really more approachable from the start. I always find it fascinating when others take an arrangement and do something different with it.
I'm doing a pop song right now as a new demo track (maybe tutorial). So this experimental stuff needs to be postponed until later.
Sun, 2023-12-17 - 23:37 Permalink
It took me a few listens to get used to the sounds,
Yes, the next day I also realized how horrible the sound actually is. If you work on it for a while, you don't notice it anymore. But you know how that is.
I'm doing a pop song right now
Don't put too much stuff in it. Two chords are enough for a pop song. Four chords are already overkill. :)
Mon, 2023-12-18 - 09:56 Permalink
Don't put too much stuff in it.
It has a few more chords, but a simple and catchy melody.
Minimalism is a challenge. Back in the day when I was a band leader, the A&R manager told us that our songs were becoming too "musical". They were afraid we would actually start making real music and venture into stuff that was no longer mainstream.
Don't underestimate pop, though. Every now and then I hear a song that really touches me. And when I look at it, it is very simple stuff, done right. Much of Mozart was simple stuff (for the time). Doing simple stuff is hard.
The good thing with simple stuff is that it immediately "works". You may like it or not, but everybody will immediately understand what's going on. Inexplicably, something magical sometimes shines through between the lines of even the simplest music (often it's the vocalist, sometimes a simple but effective chord change). Only after listening to it several times does it disappear (at least for me).
Sun, 2023-12-31 - 12:43 Permalink
Now I'm getting closer to something more palatable.
I decided for more conventional harmony and stuck to 2-3 motifs that stood out (for me). It is a very different experience, although you will notice many similarities. I think the essence of what I liked with the first attempts could be preserved.
The piece is in Eb Minor and jumps to B Major, Db Major and Gb Major. If you look at the Circle Of 5th, these keys are close neighbors but still somewhat distinct in their sound and chord repertoire. On a notation sheet you would probably not even mention them and rather use accidentals.
As always, I'm too impatient to wait a day or two before posting. Chances are I won't like it any more the next day, so be it. I'm fine with setbacks like that. Let me know if there's something you like, or something that doesn't work for you as an unprepared listener.
ex-5_0.mp3
Mon, 2024-01-01 - 15:52 Permalink
I think, it's much better than the first version. Now you have a decent intro and ending, both work quite well for me. The intro motif (0:00 to 0:08) could be repeated once (maybe with a slight modifcation) before the additional instruments come in, but that's a matter of taste. The middle part is quite ok, but not exactly exiting. The key changes work reasonably well, but seem somewhat unmotivated. Sounds more constructed than composed. And around 00:40 to 00:50 you seem to run out of ideas again, then comes the marimba...
What does not work for me: The unmotivated hammering on the marimba. This is perhaps a suitable motif if you want to set the effects of a severe headache to music, but I don't think it should have any place here. But you seem to have a preference for that kind of sound, it has already ruined an earlier arrangement of yours (Pale Rider) and by the way also one of the tutorial videos with it. But maybe today is just not the right day, to listen to something like that. Happy new year!
Mon, 2024-01-01 - 17:01 Permalink
Yes, definitely more constructed than composed. Well put. This happens when there are conflicting details and distractions you want to explore all at the same time. It's a puzzle that doesn't match.
This experiment is still a crappy puzzle. I'm struggling to deal with the idea overflow that Synfire throws my way. Too many things flash up in my imagination and I can't get them working together. Sticking with only one or two style elements still eludes me.
Regarding my penchant for hammering marimbas and wood blocks, the Short Ride In a Fast Machine is my favorite of John Adams. He's a true master. The percussion doesn't quite get through in this recording, but I have a CD here where it hammers like mad in the foreground and yes, I like that (also love Muslimgauze, maybe know them).
As far as I remember there are no marimbas in Pale Rider, though?
Happy New Year!
Mon, 2024-01-01 - 20:59 Permalink
Ah, OK. I love it (the original, not your clip). I could play the sound all day. It's the essence of the song. Didn't expect it to be so polarizing ;-)
Chromaphone 3 from AAS (Applied Acoustic Systems) is a physical simulation. The entire plug-in is a source of magnificent percussive sounds. Their other simulations are also great, String Studio 2 for example.
Sun, 2024-01-14 - 22:52 Permalink
Ok, here's now a very smooth version of this (at least that's what it feels like NOW, maybe it'll be totally different tomorrow).
I consequently kept the stuff I like most (the fanfare-like modulation parts) and remove what didn't work (the constant dissonant staccatos - goodbye oriental chords). In order to prepare for the fanfare parts, I simply re-used the rhythm for some melodies in the between parts.
The overall rhythm is now very predictable to allow for more harmonic and counterpoint surprises.
Does it work now?
ex-6.mp3
Mon, 2024-01-15 - 14:15 Permalink
Yes, I can confirm that it is very smooth now. Nothing annoys the auditory nerves any more. Now it babbles gently like a mountain stream. Perhaps even a little too gentle? But that depends on what the piece is supposed to be. If it is to be developed any further, now might be the time to think about it.
Mon, 2024-01-15 - 18:34 Permalink
I find it quite interesting how close the extremes, gentle vs. crass, actually are. If you smooth it out a bit, it gets kitschy pretty fast. If you put in some rough elements, it's like flapping mustard on your ice cream. Other genres are more forgiving, that much I can say.
And I can say with confidence that I am not the right person to compile a large library with orchestral building blocks manually (as much as I would love to have and share one). Listening to all kinds of styles and extracting their essential phrases would take considerable time.
Maybe training Factories from MIDI files will do a better job. At least they will deliver more unpredictable and surprising stuff.