You should also make it possible, that sound settings can be transfered from one Sprike instance to another via Copy/Paste. I actually wanted to add the complete list of new sounds from this arrangement to the patch list, but I couldn't do that.
Using the system clipboard for copy/paste is a good idea.
Sprike saves its sounds in individual files per sound bank and program number. Factory presets are protected (edited programs are saved in a user folder). But if you open an arrangement from another user, their sounds should not contaminate yours unless you copy/paste a program deliberately.
Therefore the idea to save an entire sound bank along with the plug-in state is potentially dangerous. The synth should only save its current program with the plug-in state, load that, and only save it to your local sound bank if you choose to (e.g. by pressing the "save" button, or renaming the program, or copy/paste).
Factory presets are protected (edited programs are saved in a user folder).
Aha, now we are getting closer. This user folder is not included in the arrangement file and therefore the associated sounds then are not available on a different computer.
Am curious now what Juergen's demo is going to sound like when everything is fixed again !
That's very easy, it would sound like the above audio file on soundcloud.
Sprike 1.9.0 now behaves like every other synth plug-in. Details here.
Sorry for the mess. Preset management and sharing across different studios is hairy stuff. Always has been.
I've attached an arrangement for testing with custom Sprike sounds. It should sound like the attached mp3.
Using a fixed-channel DD with Sprike (find one in the Repository) prevents Synfire from messing with the currently loaded custom program by sending program change messages via MIDI. However, since the custom program is loaded in its original place (e.g. Bank 2 Patch 079), the sound is not lost. It's just that you can't find it in the sound browser.
Maybe someone want to test, if this new version works better? If that version still don't work, then I give up. You should install the new Sprike 1.9.0 first.
Tne arrangement itself also was a bit reworked. If I remember correctly, someone said that there is not enough going on in this track? Well, now I filled in an few more variation containers. :)
But there's no point in discussing the arrangement if the thing isn't played correctly on your system. So let's see.
It works on Windows 11 as expected now. It does not yet load correctly on macOS though. Not sure why this is. The saved plug-in state should be cross-platform. Will have a look.
I was able to fix a bug in Synfire that prevented VST/VST3 plugins from being correctly identified across platforms (macOS vs. Windows). They now load correctly no matter on which platform they have been saved. That should make file exchange between users a lot easier.
I will check if this fix can be deployed as patch. Otherwise we have to wait for the next update.
Now that this arrangement seems to be working also on other computers, everyone is invited to rework or improve it. Some ideas for that:
Maybe the track is too long? It could be shortened simply by shortening the "Main Part" container, but this would certainly not give good results. You would have to sort out which parts to keep in, which to take out and then reassemble.
It has already been mentioned that the whole piece is built on repetitive phrases that are modified over time via the variation containers. The basic phrases can be found in the first four bars of the main part container. All changes made there will be then automatically transferred to the entire piece. This means that you can change the character of the whole piece with just a few modifications at the base phrases. You don't like the rhythmic scheme? Then delete some of the syncopated chords and you'll get a more straight beat.
If you play around with these modification, you might get to a point where you think you have a good variation that could be used as a second section in the original track. Then you can try to put it together.
You could also try to give the whole thing a new harmony. I developed the harmonic progression with a sketch consisting of the basic phrases. You can do the same: Place a new container under the first four bars of the “Main Part” container, then copy the phrases into it (Container >> Make Snapshot), then create a sketch from it (Container >> Make Sketch) and then play the sketch live with the chord palettes (View >> "Edit Current Sketch" opens the Sketch window, there select "Playback >> Play this Sketch Live"). Open different chord palettes and click on the chords to see which works best. If you want to try out chord modulations, then open several palettes at the same time and pay attention the coloring schemes of the chords to see where and how you can change the palette to reach another key. You can record the progression which you play with the record button at the palette. Then you can transfer the progression over to the arrangement to see how it sounds in the context of the track.
In any case, there are endless possibilities to continue with the piece for days and weeks. If anyone wants to upload a new version to the above Soundcloud account (synfire-collaboration), I can send you the password via PM.
The easiest way to see variations on your composition by other user , is to name the basic container on which you based piece.
You started with an intro and perhaps this prompted further basic container construction ? you got ideas through the intro ? Usually a melody or chord progression is what initiates the development of a composition.
You started with an intro and perhaps this prompted further basic container construction ? you got ideas through the intro ?
No, it didn't start with the intro. It started with making a sketch. A sketch is a short snippet (here 4 bars) of a multi-instrumental loopable arrangement (see attached file Sketch.rtime). By playing that sketch live ("Palette surfing"), I deveoped the complete harmonic progression of the piece. The resulting progression is more or less subdivided into two sections. In the fist section it's a modulation from the F minor key to Aflat major and back to F minor. The second section goes from F minor key via Aflat major to C minor and back to F minor.
After having the progression developed, I converted that sketch including the progression back to an arrangement (File >> Convert >> Open as Arrangement). The root container of the resulting arrangement was then already the raw version of the main part of the track (see file Version1.cognac).
Then I copied the content of the root container into a new container of the same length (Container >> Make Snapshot) (see file Version2.cognac). This new container "A" was then dragged a few bars to the right to make room for the intro. In the first bars, which are now free for the intro, the phrases from the root container still played, of course. I edited them a bit to sound more like a intro. That's already the raw version of the entire piece (Version3.cognac).
Of course, it's unbearable when the same phrases play throughout the whole piece. At the point in the arrangement when I thought the phrases were getting too boring or repetitive, I added variations. However, at some point I thought that at least a second motif would be necessary too. For this I then imported something (Containers "2nd Guitar pattern"). BTW: The source that I used for this "2nd Guitar pattern" gave me the idea for the title of the track. It is from the march “Stars and Stripes Forever”. But it's impossible to recognize it in this context, I think.
Is a good approach seems to me : a sketch of 4 bars and some instruments Been working years back with yamaha styles importing and made a lot of music with it, you got professional arranged music blocks from there. Cubase can also import styles
Also possible to use a piano factory and then get a melody + chord with bass doubling, then you have already 3 instruments
But making a sketch in Synfire , surely this functionality no longer exists in the current Synfire version?
What I would like is that the structure screen remains visible and that all tabs : structure-overview - etc I can drag the screen of this to another position on my computer screen. => draggable tabs Take the pallet screen, it is much more intuitive to see your tracks with symbols to place chords. The structure screen is the main screen in Synfire and all other screens have a supporting role.
That sketch possibility, has never been clear to me in Synfire and still not now when I read the online manual, or go through the menus in Synfire Is there another tutorial that explains compositing via sketch clearly, what a beginner I think can't make sense of it either?
Has never been clear to me how that real time playback of a sketch worked in Synfire . Jurgen now mentions this as a tool to create a 4 bar playing live palette which controls the sketch chord progression In this sense it is a composition tool playing live via a pallette with chords of a 4 bar sketch
In my case when using a root container only as a basic composition though can it be converted to one large sketch and then listen to the composition part via live chords ?
Therefore, also a composition section ruler that works independently of the container structure and makes chord progression building easier A composition tool that captures an entire song structure and via sketch lets a root container fill in the chords via the live palette A chord progression in another program , as in the case of the The Score Vst created , can also be used in the composition in Synfire
Initially just use a root container to get a sketch to obtain a basic composition
Sketches are for real time playback not composing.
With sketches, you can immediately experience the effect of an instrumental texture in context with chords and chord progressions. For me, this is one of Synfire's key features, if not even the most important one. And developing a chord progression that works well with the specific phrases that I use in a project is definitvely a part of the composing process for me.
Yes, that's what I thought ... I now want to apply it to a complete song with song sections in a root container Just don't know how the setup of the sketch works yet.
Did manage to make a sketch briefly ... with live chords I can use a piano example and via sketch to create a good sounding piano composition Only there is no feedback through the arrangement screen when using the live chords ...how? That live palette is a great tool to make all kinds of progressions that sound good with the instruments.
I think the further development of Synfire should go this way to follow a root container in song sections in the arrangement screen when playing live chords for a chosen song section. This is an untapped potential of Synfire and if this can be realized, then you have a good composition tool .
If Synfire is left as it is now , it remains a half-baked composition tool
Let Synfire really come alive with the arrangement screen as the centerpiece and live chord for song sections with use of a rootcontainer.
You can also try it out with your orchestral track, you posted recently on the Work in Progress section of the forum.
Choose a short section from it that can be looped. Then place a new container at this position below the root container. Then use the command Container >> Make Snapshot to copy that phrase section into it. Then Container >> Make Sketch. Then View >> Edit Current Sketch. Then the Sketch window opens. Then in that window the command “Play this Sketch live” (or similar, don't know exactly). Then open one or more chord palettes parallel to the sketch window (eg. from the Harmony tab). You can use the circle of fifth to open different palettes (double click on the keys at the circle of fifth).
I can't tell you, why all this is so complicated to prepare. But once it is prepared that way, you can now click at the chords at the palettes and you should hear your orchestral sketch being played in that chords. Click on several chords in succession to try out chord progressions. Click on chords from different chord palettes to try out key modulations.This is a method of developing progressions that is not possible in any other software.
This is a method of developing progressions that is not possible in any other software.
That's great for playing chord progressions live , but then you have to actually start using them in an arrangement That's a nice idea to play that orchestral track further sometime live Is it necessary to use a container to move the contents out of the root container ? I still want to keep it simple with a root container if possible?
I would like to keep a the arrangement screen open and do the live playing of chords there.
You would need that additional container just for the purpose of making the sketch. Once that is done, you can delete that container again, it doesn't need to remain in the arrangement to make the sketch work.
The demo from Juergen in one sketch container and now you can see the need of a songsection ruler The loopsection is the place where live chord must be played
Is it necessary to use a container to move the contents out of the root container ?
You can also make a sketch from the root container. Then you wouldn't need that separate container. But then the sketch would play the content of the entire root container in a loop which often is not ideal for developing progressions. Often it is better to use a smaller section for that purpose. Then this separate (temporary) container comes into play, where you put in the desired section of the song from which you want to make the sketch.
Thu, 2025-05-08 - 11:38 Permalink
You should also make it possible, that sound settings can be transfered from one Sprike instance to another via Copy/Paste. I actually wanted to add the complete list of new sounds from this arrangement to the patch list, but I couldn't do that.
Thu, 2025-05-08 - 14:46 Permalink
Using the system clipboard for copy/paste is a good idea.
Sprike saves its sounds in individual files per sound bank and program number. Factory presets are protected (edited programs are saved in a user folder). But if you open an arrangement from another user, their sounds should not contaminate yours unless you copy/paste a program deliberately.
Therefore the idea to save an entire sound bank along with the plug-in state is potentially dangerous. The synth should only save its current program with the plug-in state, load that, and only save it to your local sound bank if you choose to (e.g. by pressing the "save" button, or renaming the program, or copy/paste).
Thu, 2025-05-08 - 14:46 Permalink
Am curious now what Juergen's demo is going to sound like when everything is fixed again !
Not a easy fix, but with all sorts of conditions
Thu, 2025-05-08 - 15:04 Permalink
Aha, now we are getting closer. This user folder is not included in the arrangement file and therefore the associated sounds then are not available on a different computer.
That's very easy, it would sound like the above audio file on soundcloud.
Yes, and I don't think I feel like doing it.
Thu, 2025-05-08 - 15:43 Permalink
Well, it's just what you're used to.
Fri, 2025-05-09 - 13:14 Permalink
Sprike 1.9.0 now behaves like every other synth plug-in. Details here.
Sorry for the mess. Preset management and sharing across different studios is hairy stuff. Always has been.
I've attached an arrangement for testing with custom Sprike sounds. It should sound like the attached mp3.
Using a fixed-channel DD with Sprike (find one in the Repository) prevents Synfire from messing with the currently loaded custom program by sending program change messages via MIDI. However, since the custom program is loaded in its original place (e.g. Bank 2 Patch 079), the sound is not lost. It's just that you can't find it in the sound browser.
Custom Sounds (all in bank 1)
J Dist Guitar
Glass Menagerie
Solar Spring
sprike-custom-sounds_0.mp3
Fri, 2025-05-09 - 13:23 Permalink
The post littered the entire site with an mp3 player ....
Fri, 2025-05-09 - 15:00 Permalink
How should you go about using Sprike ?
Sat, 2025-05-10 - 15:51 Permalink
Maybe someone want to test, if this new version works better? If that version still don't work, then I give up. You should install the new Sprike 1.9.0 first.
Tne arrangement itself also was a bit reworked. If I remember correctly, someone said that there is not enough going on in this track? Well, now I filled in an few more variation containers. :)
But there's no point in discussing the arrangement if the thing isn't played correctly on your system. So let's see.
Sat, 2025-05-10 - 16:18 Permalink
Success!
It works on Windows 11 as expected now. It does not yet load correctly on macOS though. Not sure why this is. The saved plug-in state should be cross-platform. Will have a look.
Sat, 2025-05-10 - 16:21 Permalink
I think the arrangement is working well now !
Sat, 2025-05-10 - 17:39 Permalink
What a great day.
I was able to fix a bug in Synfire that prevented VST/VST3 plugins from being correctly identified across platforms (macOS vs. Windows). They now load correctly no matter on which platform they have been saved. That should make file exchange between users a lot easier.
I will check if this fix can be deployed as patch. Otherwise we have to wait for the next update.
Sun, 2025-05-11 - 09:33 Permalink
Now that this arrangement seems to be working also on other computers, everyone is invited to rework or improve it. Some ideas for that:
Maybe the track is too long? It could be shortened simply by shortening the "Main Part" container, but this would certainly not give good results. You would have to sort out which parts to keep in, which to take out and then reassemble.
It has already been mentioned that the whole piece is built on repetitive phrases that are modified over time via the variation containers. The basic phrases can be found in the first four bars of the main part container. All changes made there will be then automatically transferred to the entire piece. This means that you can change the character of the whole piece with just a few modifications at the base phrases. You don't like the rhythmic scheme? Then delete some of the syncopated chords and you'll get a more straight beat.
If you play around with these modification, you might get to a point where you think you have a good variation that could be used as a second section in the original track. Then you can try to put it together.
You could also try to give the whole thing a new harmony. I developed the harmonic progression with a sketch consisting of the basic phrases. You can do the same: Place a new container under the first four bars of the “Main Part” container, then copy the phrases into it (Container >> Make Snapshot), then create a sketch from it (Container >> Make Sketch) and then play the sketch live with the chord palettes (View >> "Edit Current Sketch" opens the Sketch window, there select "Playback >> Play this Sketch Live"). Open different chord palettes and click on the chords to see which works best. If you want to try out chord modulations, then open several palettes at the same time and pay attention the coloring schemes of the chords to see where and how you can change the palette to reach another key. You can record the progression which you play with the record button at the palette. Then you can transfer the progression over to the arrangement to see how it sounds in the context of the track.
In any case, there are endless possibilities to continue with the piece for days and weeks. If anyone wants to upload a new version to the above Soundcloud account (synfire-collaboration), I can send you the password via PM.
Sun, 2025-05-11 - 10:53 Permalink
The easiest way to see variations on your composition by other user , is to name the basic container on which you based piece.
You started with an intro and perhaps this prompted further basic container construction ?
you got ideas through the intro ?
Usually a melody or chord progression is what initiates the development of a composition.
Sun, 2025-05-11 - 21:36 Permalink
No, it didn't start with the intro. It started with making a sketch. A sketch is a short snippet (here 4 bars) of a multi-instrumental loopable arrangement (see attached file Sketch.rtime). By playing that sketch live ("Palette surfing"), I deveoped the complete harmonic progression of the piece. The resulting progression is more or less subdivided into two sections. In the fist section it's a modulation from the F minor key to Aflat major and back to F minor. The second section goes from F minor key via Aflat major to C minor and back to F minor.
After having the progression developed, I converted that sketch including the progression back to an arrangement (File >> Convert >> Open as Arrangement). The root container of the resulting arrangement was then already the raw version of the main part of the track (see file Version1.cognac).
Then I copied the content of the root container into a new container of the same length (Container >> Make Snapshot) (see file Version2.cognac). This new container "A" was then dragged a few bars to the right to make room for the intro. In the first bars, which are now free for the intro, the phrases from the root container still played, of course. I edited them a bit to sound more like a intro. That's already the raw version of the entire piece (Version3.cognac).
Of course, it's unbearable when the same phrases play throughout the whole piece. At the point in the arrangement when I thought the phrases were getting too boring or repetitive, I added variations. However, at some point I thought that at least a second motif would be necessary too. For this I then imported something (Containers "2nd Guitar pattern"). BTW: The source that I used for this "2nd Guitar pattern" gave me the idea for the title of the track. It is from the march “Stars and Stripes Forever”. But it's impossible to recognize it in this context, I think.
Sun, 2025-05-11 - 22:16 Permalink
Is a good approach seems to me : a sketch of 4 bars and some instruments
Been working years back with yamaha styles importing and made a lot of music with it, you got professional arranged music blocks from there.
Cubase can also import styles
Also possible to use a piano factory and then get a melody + chord with bass doubling, then you have already 3 instruments
Sun, 2025-05-11 - 23:11 Permalink
But making a sketch in Synfire , surely this functionality no longer exists in the current Synfire version?
What I would like is that the structure screen remains visible and that all tabs : structure-overview - etc I can drag the screen of this to another position on my computer screen. => draggable tabs
Take the pallet screen, it is much more intuitive to see your tracks with symbols to place chords.
The structure screen is the main screen in Synfire and all other screens have a supporting role.
Tue, 2025-05-13 - 09:30 Permalink
That sketch possibility, has never been clear to me in Synfire and still not now when I read the online manual, or go through the menus in Synfire
Is there another tutorial that explains compositing via sketch clearly, what a beginner I think can't make sense of it either?
Tue, 2025-05-13 - 10:03 Permalink
Sketches are for real time playback not composing. You can move the phrases of a sketch to a library if you want to use them in an arrangement
Tue, 2025-05-13 - 10:39 Permalink
Has never been clear to me how that real time playback of a sketch worked in Synfire .
Jurgen now mentions this as a tool to create a 4 bar playing live palette which controls the sketch chord progression
In this sense it is a composition tool playing live via a pallette with chords of a 4 bar sketch
In my case when using a root container only as a basic composition though can it be converted to one large sketch and then listen to the composition part via live chords ?
Tue, 2025-05-13 - 11:21 Permalink
Therefore, also a composition section ruler that works independently of the container structure and makes chord progression building easier
A composition tool that captures an entire song structure and via sketch lets a root container fill in the chords via the live palette
A chord progression in another program , as in the case of the The Score Vst created , can also be used in the composition in Synfire
Initially just use a root container to get a sketch to obtain a basic composition
Just a idea ...
Tue, 2025-05-13 - 11:28 Permalink
With sketches, you can immediately experience the effect of an instrumental texture in context with chords and chord progressions. For me, this is one of Synfire's key features, if not even the most important one. And developing a chord progression that works well with the specific phrases that I use in a project is definitvely a part of the composing process for me.
Tue, 2025-05-13 - 11:42 Permalink
Yes, that's what I thought ...
I now want to apply it to a complete song with song sections in a root container
Just don't know how the setup of the sketch works yet.
Tue, 2025-05-13 - 12:20 Permalink
Did manage to make a sketch briefly ... with live chords
I can use a piano example and via sketch to create a good sounding piano composition
Only there is no feedback through the arrangement screen when using the live chords ...how?
That live palette is a great tool to make all kinds of progressions that sound good with the instruments.
I think the further development of Synfire should go this way to follow a root container in song sections in the arrangement screen when playing live chords for a chosen song section.
This is an untapped potential of Synfire and if this can be realized, then you have a good composition tool .
If Synfire is left as it is now , it remains a half-baked composition tool
Let Synfire really come alive with the arrangement screen as the centerpiece and live chord for song sections with use of a rootcontainer.
Tue, 2025-05-13 - 12:40 Permalink
You can also try it out with your orchestral track, you posted recently on the Work in Progress section of the forum.
Choose a short section from it that can be looped. Then place a new container at this position below the root container. Then use the command Container >> Make Snapshot to copy that phrase section into it. Then Container >> Make Sketch. Then View >> Edit Current Sketch. Then the Sketch window opens. Then in that window the command “Play this Sketch live” (or similar, don't know exactly). Then open one or more chord palettes parallel to the sketch window (eg. from the Harmony tab). You can use the circle of fifth to open different palettes (double click on the keys at the circle of fifth).
I can't tell you, why all this is so complicated to prepare. But once it is prepared that way, you can now click at the chords at the palettes and you should hear your orchestral sketch being played in that chords. Click on several chords in succession to try out chord progressions. Click on chords from different chord palettes to try out key modulations.This is a method of developing progressions that is not possible in any other software.
Tue, 2025-05-13 - 12:51 Permalink
That's great for playing chord progressions live , but then you have to actually start using them in an arrangement
That's a nice idea to play that orchestral track further sometime live
Is it necessary to use a container to move the contents out of the root container ?
I still want to keep it simple with a root container if possible?
I would like to keep a the arrangement screen open and do the live playing of chords there.
Tue, 2025-05-13 - 13:22 Permalink
You would need that additional container just for the purpose of making the sketch. Once that is done, you can delete that container again, it doesn't need to remain in the arrangement to make the sketch work.
Tue, 2025-05-13 - 13:57 Permalink
Of course, I can then put the entire root container arrangement into a container, which is one step.
But now, in the Arrangement window, I want to continue working with the Progression operation.
Ideally, I would like to create a live chord on a certain part of the song.
Example: I want to create a modulation on bar 10.
Tue, 2025-05-13 - 14:38 Permalink
The demo from Juergen in one sketch container and now you can see the need of a songsection ruler
The loopsection is the place where live chord must be played
Can this be happen ?
Tue, 2025-05-13 - 16:57 Permalink
You can also make a sketch from the root container. Then you wouldn't need that separate container. But then the sketch would play the content of the entire root container in a loop which often is not ideal for developing progressions. Often it is better to use a smaller section for that purpose. Then this separate (temporary) container comes into play, where you put in the desired section of the song from which you want to make the sketch.