Posted
Solitudes - (http://www.box.com/s/6ahk0z73q2q9h1ozeo72)
A string player friend of mine, suggested I try to write a string sextet with flute and clarinet and he would get it performed in one of the NYC orchestra's he's in.
Here's a work in progress so far. 90% dones in SFP, some editing and additions done in Logic. It's still a work in progress.
I come from a pop background, It's hard firguring what a certain instruemtn should be doing at a certain point in reference..
It's also very hard to take 8 mono lines, and create music with them. Never approached music like this before.. I'm learning a lot, have done several varations, working out SFP functions too.
Any feedback would be appreciated, there are still some bumps in it, needs a more conclusive ending. Perhaps more theme development, or a 2nd them..
He's gone over it once with me, we made a lot of headway, when the notes are more or less write, he'll introduce me to a real string arranger for some more refinement. This is a dream come true for me....And a lot work. If I can get the drones to work I'll switch over to Kontakt I have some EWQLSO and VSL libraries with articulations, that shoulld make a bit difference.
Fri, 2012-03-02 - 19:02 Permalink
Hi Mark,
Nice work and a very interesting project.
Perhaps more theme development, or a 2nd them..
I think it's not necessary to introduce a 2nd theme. Maybe you could work out the existing theme a bit more clearly at the beginning so that the listener can easily recognize: That's the theme!
I'd say the place where the theme at the moment has its best effect is between 1:04 and 1:17. I would load that few seconds of the arrangement as an accompaniment into Synfire and play around with it at the palettes. There are good chances that you will find a good chord progression this way to repeat the theme two or three times.
Another thing is that the woodwinds (at least one of them) play continuously from the beginning to the end. You should give them a break anywhere in the middle of the piece. That will remind the listener that the strings are also there.
Currently the strings operate mainly as an accompaniment to the woodwinds. You could give them more work. For example you could repeat the fast run of the clarinet at 3:50 with the violins. You also could build a cascade with it: first the clarinet, then the violin, then viola, then (maybe with a slower tempo) cello. The more I think about this piece the more ideas I get what can be done with it. But of course not everything will work. Finally only the ear can decide what was a good idea and what not.
I wish much success with it.
Juergen
Fri, 2012-03-02 - 20:45 Permalink
Thank you Juergen:
Very astute observations. The idea of capturing a section, using as an accompianment to play with pallette, would never have occurred to me. I've tried several lovely progressions, but was stuck as how to modulate to them and incorporate them back to the song and not have the piece sound like it was 'stitched' together.
If anyone has observations on doing that, or where to point one to, to read for themselves. I know it's kind of buried deep within music harmony or theory book.
Having been very disciplined in the world of pop music. I find it hard to go past 4 minutes. Pieces longer do have to have more thought and variation put into them to hold interest.
When I was a kid, I was taught how to modulate to a new key with 1 - 4 chords depending on the situation. I think those braincells must have perished with the pot smoking period.. Seriously I need to look that up again, how to modulate to a new place and how many chords to go thru to get there with the best effect.
I've also gotten rusty on ending chord progressions to give a feeling of a real ending.
Yes will assign more work to strings, and silence the clarinet a bit. The piece still has a bit of an improvised feel, which goes on too long. Thanx again for the excellent critique.
Anyone knowledgeable of a website that goes into this area, please let all of us know.
Currently I've been going to this site
(http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/forumdisplay.php/77-Principles-of-O…)
But I'm goingn thru the jazz class first. I'll have to work up to Rimsky-Korsakov (the grandfather of arranging)/
The courses are free, and compare with Berklee's which are close to $700-$1000 a piece now. (taken a few, but are very good). Much more aimed at pop, and comtemporary music.
Mark
Sat, 2012-03-03 - 12:11 Permalink
When I was a kid, I was taught how to modulate to a new key with 1 - 4 chords depending on the situation. I think those braincells must have perished with the pot smoking period.. Seriously I need to look that up again, how to modulate to a new place and how many chords to go thru to get there with the best effect.
Study the tutorials from Cognitone for chordmodulation.. so activate some new braincells for that
:-)
Note
BUT i find a rather difficult thing to master to find modulations with the circle of fitfh diagram and palette and perhaps Cognitone can improve the userfriendlyness of this feature?
A interesting modulation to do with the palette is the major chord and his relative minor chord..so you can go from a major feeling to a minor feeling or the other way around
Example: Cmajor and Aminor ..look at the circle of fith diagram in SFP too
Sat, 2012-03-03 - 21:25 Permalink
Specifically what I stating is that - their was a chart at the back of a music book, (some kind of theory book) which showed you how to modulate from any key to any other in 1 - 5steps (depending on chosen chords).. The chart was written out in Roman Numerals.
Playing with the palatte is a good exercise, but is not goig to show you the progression, you could spend quite a bit of time chosing a chord progression, and it would be one of your own chosing..There may be less convolluted progressions, than the one you discovered.
The chart is a time proven method of accomplishing what you need. The beauty of it is, to a casual user, they are not aware of the key change it is much more sophisticated
. While stepping up a 1/2 or whole key, can be very effective, it is sometimes too cliche and overused. Sort of like the composer ran out of ideas, so he jacked it up a key, rather than find a more sophisticated way to assume the same results.
Sun, 2012-03-04 - 12:33 Permalink
Yes, that's an easy and very effective method to bring some harmonic live into a song. It's called direct or abrupt modulation and is used in many, many pop or rock songs. In german language, btw, that method is not called a modulation, it has a special term, "Rückung", what means something like "key shifting" and that says exactly what happens there: The entire progression is shifted to a new key, without any brigde in between.
Abrupt modulation is one of the simplest type of modulation..without warning there is a sudden chance of key.
It is also could truck-driver's gearshift :-)
I do have here a small book of MAX REGER: Modulation with all sorts of modulations( chord progressions with oktave doubling i think )..so this can be serving as a basis for your own modulation
What says the book about my example from Aminor to Cmajor modulate?
Tonic a-minor; sub-dominant (d minor); use this d-minor which is relative to the sub-dominant (F-major) of C-major (Cadence!)
in Chordsymbols
[a^I , a^IV (=^C^II), C^V, C^I ]
I hope you can decipher this .. small letter is for minor scale and big letter for Major and use the degrees of the 2 scales
It seems that Max gives the same modulation as i did, but i did all in root position and Max has a better voice leading for his 4 notes chords, he uses also inversions.
I can use these examples as guide for a modulation..so it is not necessary to invent the chord wheel again.
Sun, 2012-03-04 - 12:36 Permalink
Ofcourse..
It is a English translation from Max, Reger 1873-1916 : Beitrage zur modulationslehre
It is a DOVER publication :(http://www.doverpublications.com) (USA)
Book title: Modulation 6.95 USD
ISBN-13:978-0-486-45732-1
ISBN -10:0-486-45732-X
2 ISBN mumbers? ..this little book is a suplement to the theory book : theory of Modulation
The modulations are given in so-called cadence-like form, in order to to thus lay before the pupil the fundamental principle of modulation in the clearest possible manner.
Note: it seem that are given the most basic modulation progressions and you can enrich the modulation by more chords,substitutions and extensions.
Have fun with it !
Sun, 2012-03-04 - 12:51 Permalink
I often modulate by copying the previous containers chords in a new container selecting them and then raising or lowering the entire progression this always gives great results and ideas.
Yes, that's an easy and very effective method to bring some harmonic life into a song. It's called direct or abrupt modulation and is used in many, many pop or rock songs. In german language, btw, that method is not called a modulation, it has a special term, "Rückung", what means something like "key shifting" and that says exactly what happens there: The entire progression is shifted to a new key, without any brigde in between.
To make this work for the listener it is helpful that the entire progression of the previous section (and also the melody) is repeated in the new key. Otherwise the listener may get confused and can't follow the progression. Therefore it is mostly used to repeat the entire verse of a song in the new key (usually the final repetition of the verse at the end of the song). HN and Synfire are the perfect tools to try that out. Just use the method duderanch explained above: Copy the entire progression from one container (or song section) to the next one and transpose it there (select the parameter "Harmony" in the new container and use the menu command Vector >> Transpose).
Best working are shifts to the key at the dominant of the original key, i.e. for example from Cmaj to Gmaj, but semintone shifts (for example from Cmaj to C#maj) or whole tone shifts (Cmaj > Dmaj) also work. Semitone shifts sometimes are used to build a sequence (for example Cmaj > C#maj > Dmaj ...).
Sun, 2012-03-04 - 13:30 Permalink
It is also could truck-driver's gearshift
Yeah, here is a website, where you can listen to some music examples:
very funny!
Mon, 2012-03-05 - 14:46 Permalink
Playing with the palatte is a good exercise, but is not goig to show you the progression, you could spend quite a bit of time chosing a chord progression, and it would be one of your own chosing..There may be less convolluted progressions, than the one you discovered.
There is a source key and a target key ..and in the circle of fifth in SFP(or HN2) you can choose a target key and than use CTRL + click to choose a target key--> the palette shows now the shared chords ( can be used as pivot chords!) between the 2 keys.
With this knowledge you can use pivot chords to go from the source key to the target. key...this is the principle.
A interesting modulation is from a minor to c major key ( or opposite )..so start simple with Cmaj to Amin as exercise or study the tutorial to see what key distance is involved, because if the scales differ too much than they have not much shared chords
Example Cmajor versus Gmajor ( 1# ).. so these 2 scales have 6 notes in common ..so there is big chance they have pivot chords
Same logic for other Keys.. once you know the formulae for the scale C you can compare the formulaes.
Example : Cmajor versus Aminor..have the same notes
Ok let me focus on Aminor to Cmajor modulation ..the knowledge that they share the same chords is a start to figure out the modulation by reasoning ( it can be also done in the palette by freezing the palette ..see tutorial)
For this you must look at the function of the chords of a particular key ..and specially the primairy triads are important , because it is the main functional movement in a chord progression ( I-IV-V = tonica-subdomninant-dominant )
I-IV-V = tension
V-I = resolution of tension ( authentic kadenze as example here )
This is the main movement emotional in music
Ok the Aminor to C major modulation
- have the same chords
- Aminor is tonic = I (scale)
- Dmaj is IV ( Amin scale)
- Emaj = V ( Amin scale )
These 2 chords are pivot chords -- and in the Amin scale they are degree IV and V..how about in the Cmaj scale ?
a(I)-b-c-d(IV)-e(V)-f-g-a Aminor
c-d(II)- e(III)-f-g-a-b-c C maj
In the C maj scale they are degree II and III .. so they sit between degree I ...... Degree V of the CMaj scale
------------------------------------------------------------------
To get the best modulation: you must go from V ( scale ) to I (scale) ..so the target key ( Cmaj ) must go from V to I
-----------------------------------------------------------------
The target key has already 2 pivot chords on degree II and III ..so you must go from there to V and than to I
In chord symbols it is: A-D-E-> see below it goes further (Aminor scale
-G-C (C major scale)
Note: you must read this as one progression.
So this is the (rough) modulation progression..you can add more chords or substitutions/extensions too as you like
A (from Aminor key)-D (from Aminor key)-E (from Aminor key) -G (from Cmajor key)-C ( from Cmajor key)
Note: i did not give the right chordtype now for the triads of the Aminor and Cmajor scale, but you can this easily figure out
This is the idea of pivot modulation .
I MUST PRACTICE WITH THE PALLETE AND FREEZE FUNCTION AND SEE THE LOGIC THERE LIKE THE VIDEO TUTORIALS
Tue, 2012-03-06 - 14:30 Permalink
some more ideas for chords..special for @Mark Styles to go in for hip hop sessions
Some more backgroundinformation for modulations http://www.musilogic.com/music_theory_lessons.html
Wed, 2012-03-07 - 20:37 Permalink
thanx janamdo for the ideas an info. I do remember now it had something to do with circular 4ths and circular 5ths. When I was 13 I studied with a great private teacher, I could barely keep up with the amount of information he threw at me so quickly, unfortunately a moderate amount got lost over the years, cause I was playing simple pop,rock for a living - a half or whole key transpostion was as complicated as it got. Some times they worked well, other times not, just a cheap cliched trick for a lazy composer.
This discussion has been good cause it's brought up a lot of discussion. The palettes and chord substition features are great in SFP, cause it lets us explore options many people aren't familiar unless they've spent serious time in music college.
I've been particularly fascinated by make non repeating or very long progressions using substitution, cause it gives the piece a quality the listener can't quite put his finger one, and it gives the piece a feeling of restlessness, or wandering if done right.
The real beauty is we can do the song then quite easily plug in new chords without rebuiding the song from scratch.
Thu, 2012-03-08 - 00:39 Permalink
Do you know the "secret composer" website in USA ? .. i bought the course for 40 USD and there are so much ideas from composing to bring into SFP.
The idea that chords + melody stays the same all the time for different sounds and different feels ( so , how to get different feels?)
The course is a structured one and also usable a background/guiding information.
Sat, 2012-03-10 - 00:05 Permalink
Secret Composer looks great. Although one can blindly play with HN or SFP leaning new areas of music helps us grow as a musiciaan.
Here are a couple of links regarding to key modulations.
(http://musictheoryresources.com/members/FA_rhythm.htm)
(http://smu.edu/totw/modulate.htm)
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modulation_(music))
(http://www.harmony.org.uk/book/functional_harmony_passing_chords.htm)
Sat, 2012-03-10 - 01:03 Permalink
Especially this person is a master ( as he is a Master in Music) in this kind of analyzing the "notes"
http://www.harmony.org.uk/book/functional_harmony_passing_chords.htm
But luckily with SFP or HN2 there is no deep analyze note /chord paterns necessary
A another interesting point is" wandering" chords..
Do you now have a idea to accomplanish this..wandering restless chords ?
It seems that your song is than under way all the time and you don't get tired?
I've been particularly fascinated by make non repeating or very long progressions using substitution, cause it gives the piece a quality the listener can't quite put his finger one, and it gives the piece a feeling of restlessness, or wandering if done right.
The real beauty is we can do the song then quite easily plug in new chords without rebuiding the song from scratch.
Tue, 2012-03-13 - 03:35 Permalink
I start with a long progression (32 bars), but I might make some of the other lines loop at different loop #'s. Like the melody at 18 bars, or some other supporting line at 24 bars.. I make use of SFP chord subsitution feature.. In fact i've done a couple of pieces that don't have any repeatable chords, once in a while a 3 or 4 bar seqment.
The work is getting the other parts to maintain theme or variations, other times you just come up with 'audio wallpaper', which is not necessarily a bad thing. In any event having the ability to change chords after a piece is complete, is a GREAT feature.
I did upload a bunch of chord progressions a while back, I've got them so they pop up with the factory progressions. It would be an idea to create some more. It's an easy way to get things started.
Another trick I've found is to work on the piece export a midifile of all parts, and then import it again, Depending on what tracks you put to 'static' mode. It can seem to smooth out the piece.
I also export the tracks from Logic (using anywhere from 30 - 90%, import them into SFP as static and create a souped up piano part by inporting other monophonic midi lines. Great for getting the piano to play occassional 16th note riffs for fill-in or answer.
I made a library of folk tunes all from one well known artist. I've also done some with other flavors. If more people added some we would have a great library for all to share.