Posted
Are there any success stories with the use of the drones in a DAW?
Does anyone have a finished song that has used them, along with other non-Synfire audio or MIDI tracks in the project?
If so, got any pointers?
Sa., 16.11.2013 - 08:22 Permalink
Whats the DAW you are using? Are you using the engine for any sounds even the global sounds? Windows or Mac?
The drones definately work for me, although I use Ableton Live on a Mac. Often mix audio with drones both drones hosting vsti and also midi drones for external instruments and those Ableton ones that cant be hosted in a non Ableton host.
https://soundcloud.com/blacksun/lonely Drums are using midi drones, everything except the guitar is drones and obviously the guitar is an audio track sent to me by the collaborator I was working with.
https://soundcloud.com/blacksun/beware Drums were sequenced using midi drones, all instruments were either midi drones and an external synth or vsti in drones, and then lots of audio samples.
https://soundcloud.com/blacksun/no-fire-final-32 drums were sequenced within Ableton, audio tracks and vst hosts in drones.
Forgot to add that the 'beware' and 'no-fire' tunes demonstrate the power of synfire. Both started out as the same synfire file. Changed instruments sounds, replaced midi drum patterns in synfire. Changed chord progression in synfire, moved the containers around a little and obviously replaced the audio samples. Beware took about an hour or two to do starting from the no-fire project (some might say it shows lol). Most of that time was taken up with chopping up audio clips and mix down.
So it definately works with my environment. Please post what you are using and what youve tried to do and Im sure people will get you up and running.
Sa., 16.11.2013 - 08:22 Permalink
Over the past 2 years (on and off) I've tried using drones in various projects in the following DAWs: Sonar, Reaper, Ableton, Renoise, and just using Bidule standalone (all on Windows). I've never been able to get a stable setup; it sometimes starts out well, but then Synfire has always eventually ended up not recognizing the project in the DAW.
Sa., 16.11.2013 - 09:40 Permalink
Hey Scrapdog
... In case you haven't caught my (probably in many folks' view) 'tired act,' I have no use for drones or audio in Synfire and never have.
I see it like this: your DAW of choice can be the world's greatest synth farm; you can have softsynths and hardware all working together via midi; you can run patch scripts to select hundreds of different patches to audition on the fly; and, you are all setup to track your sound modules audio in the synth to get ready for audio mixdown.
All you need is virtual midi cables to route from Synfire to your DAW and tell Synfire what general GM patch is going out on what port/ channel and how you'd like it played 'a la' the interpretation parameters. It's simple in concept and now simple in execution since Andre has redesigned the use of 'devices' for midi output (see the new video).
Yes, this is the 'old way,' but it works just fine ... thank you, very much ... and it permits you to control your sonic palette from your DAW ... where it presumably will end up anyway with drones.
Prado
Sa., 16.11.2013 - 11:54 Permalink
Just a counter argument regarding the last two posts. I too have had problems with synfire projects 'loosing' their connection to ableton. I dont seem to have that problem any more (touches wood). Whether that is due to improvements in synfire or Ive finally got the workflow right I do not know. It will cause problems if you save as the daw project under a different name, etc.. There is a definate order to save things with or it can screw up and you have to set up your instrument mappings again.
When I first used synfire, virtual midi cables were the only way to link to a daw. The windows product shipped with loopbe and the Mac version used the Mac's in built virtual cables. I used to have issues with timing using these. Very subtle differences especially if I kept the drums in Ableton. Things would feel 'late' or lazy. Since switching to drones I havent had that problem. I guess it does depend on what type of music you are producing as to whether this is an issue. Obviously others are having great success with the virtual midi connections so it might be an option that suits you. However the drones give sample level syncronisation (ie its very tight), so I would say dont give up on them just yet, at least get them working and give them a try before switching to virtual midi cables.
Sa., 16.11.2013 - 14:55 Permalink
I've tried using Synfire with drones in Reaper and Live, the Cognitone VST engine and even Synfire driving an external MIDI synthesizer.
Every single playback method where Synfire triggers notes leads to "loose" timing up to the point of being totally unusable. More voices to play worsen the problem. Restarting Synfire often improves it again for a while.
For me the only way to get stable timing and hear the voices in correct rhythmic context is to export to a MIDI file and have a DAW manage playback from there.
Seems (at least on my system) Synfire is not suitable for playing back longer sequences of multi-voice material time over time during a long session.
I'm running an Synfire on Athlon64+ under Windows XP Home with a Creamware Pulsar DSP sound card. Other DAWs run fine and stable on this machine.
Sa., 16.11.2013 - 15:36 Permalink
Hi HiEnergy
For me the only way to get stable timing and hear the voices in correct rhythmic context is to export to a MIDI file and have a DAW manage playback from there.
It seems that timing problems can occur when someone use a loopbackdriver with Synfire as composingtool and the DAW as soundmodule ?
Better is than to compose first in Synfire own audioengine, because there are no timing errors to expect from the audioengine of Synfire, and when finished with composing...export ( relocate) the Vsti used in Synfire and drag the Midi tracks from Synfire to the DAW tracks.
You can go further in the DAW with composing or mixing/mastering.
Do you have hardware Midi soundmodules than another setup must be performed ?
Sa., 16.11.2013 - 16:22 Permalink
A few things got mixed up in this thread. Scrapdog was asking about drones. External MIDI timing and whether or not to use drones in the first place, are separate topics. It would be helpful to keep the topic focussed.
Synfire has always eventually ended up not recognizing the project in the DAW
This should not happen unless you saved copies of the arrangement without also saving copies of the DAW file at the same time (and in that order). This is required to keep them linked. Synfire shows a warning message in this situation. Maybe you have dismissed it, so it does no longer show up?
Background: Saving an arrangement with "Save As…" will assign it a new identity (GUID). This new identity is deployed to the drones in the DAW. You must therefore save both files (Synfire first, then DAW) and keep them together in a folder, so you don't lose track of which belongs to which.
Also, if you open the same arrangement twice (two windows), the second one will receive a new ID and will therefore not be linked to the same DAW project.
When restoring a backup copy of an arrangement from the File menu, or using "Revert to Last Saved", it should not receive a new ID. I will check if there is possibly a bug.
Every single playback method where Synfire triggers notes leads to "loose" timing up to the point of being totally unusable.
In a drone, this should be impossible, because timing is ensured by the DAW. Synfire feeds MIDI into the drone ahead of time. The playback is done by the DAW itself.
As for external MIDI, I could not yet reproduce timing problems (between instruments played by Synfire). There may be a lag between a DAW transport and Synfire's transport though, as these are started by ReWire and then both programs run them on their own clocks in parallel at the same tempo. Depending on how accurate tempo computation is in each program, the lag may add up over a long period of time.
The only 100% synch between DAW and Synfire is ensured by the drones. Sending raw MIDI data around between two programs that run at their own transport speeds will always lead to a lag, sooner or later in the song.
Restarting Synfire often improves it again for a while.
Instead you can recalibrate the lag compensation between DAW and Synfire: Press "Reset" on the Audio & MIDI Setup window. The lag between two programs running in parallel however, is inevitable, unless you use drones or the engine.
Sa., 16.11.2013 - 16:42 Permalink
@HiEnergy:
Under Playback >> External Synchronization, please increase the render ahead time to "Safe" (160ms). That will feed Synfire's output more earlier to the sequencer, so you won't get late notes anymore.
No idea why the default setting does not work for you. Will test on other Windows machines here.
Sa., 16.11.2013 - 19:09 Permalink
In a drone, this should be impossible, because timing is ensured by the DAW. Synfire feeds MIDI into the drone ahead of time. The playback is done by the DAW itself.
As for external MIDI, I could not yet reproduce timing problems (between instruments played by Synfire). There may be a lag between a DAW transport and Synfire's transport though, as these are started by ReWire and then both programs run them on their own clocks in parallel at the same tempo. Depending on how accurate tempo computation is in each program, the lag may add up over a long period of time.
The only 100% synch between DAW and Synfire is ensured by the drones. Sending raw MIDI data around between two programs that run at their own transport speeds will always lead to a lag, sooner or later in the song.
For clarification and 'what it's worth.' I cannot see how there could be a problem with external synths beyond any 4 or 5 msecs lag/ delay. Even when Synfire uses an O/S related synth as in Windows, there must still be some tiny delay. IF, you are using the same sound module, as I do with GM, perceived delay must be non-existant. However, the more different sound sources among hardware and hosted software you combine, the greater chance that discrepancies between one sound source and another become apparent.
But then you seem to be talking about 'midi drift,' where there is a sync change over time. If there is midi drift, where midi tracks don't sync with one another in Synfire, then no method of routing would be immune from it. Therefore, I don't see how midi drift could exist in current versions, as a lot of people would notice it and complain ... which I haven't noticed myself or heard from others.
A softsynth playing in a DAW will be subject to the latency arising from the buffer setting. You will need that synced.
My preferred method while prototyping is a completely passive and empty DAW with no attempt to synch Synfire to anything playting in the DAW ... that can all come later if I want to add elements or arrange around some other material or add drums, etc.
Therefore, I don't bother with ReWire. As implemented in Synfire it is primitive 'start' and 'stop.'
My method is simply to pipe midi from a 'running' Synfire to my DAW, which is not running, but merely passing midi to the auditioned channels so that the audio plays. That's why I consider the DAW at this point to simply be a giant sound module. Once I have what I want from Synfire I have three options: save, export and import the midi file to the DAW; start my DAW first in record mode with all the midi tracks I've been using record enabled, and then start Synfire and record the midi input directly; or, route the playing midi in the DAW to audio tracks and directly record the sound sources output in individual tracks.
I prefer the first method. All of this becomes efficient when effective templates are created in Synfire and in your DAW so that you don't have to repeatedly set everything up for a new project.
So., 17.11.2013 - 00:36 Permalink
This should not happen unless you saved copies of the arrangement without also saving copies of the DAW file at the same time (and in that order).
One thing to note is that in almost all times I've tried, my DAW project has already been established before I've made the decision to add Synfire to it.
Most often my DAW is Sonar, but I have mentioned above, I've used others. As far as I can recall, the way I did things was as follows:
Assuming I already have my existing project open in Sonar:
1. Open Synfire
2. Add the transport and a couple of drones to my Sonar project
3. On the Synfire side, create a couple of instruments that use the drones
4. Add some phrases on the Synfire side
5. Decide that I want to go forward using Synfire, so I name and save the Synfire arrangement in the same directory as the Sonar project
6. Save the Sonar project as well
Now, it is very probable that in many places after step 3 but before step 5, I have saved my project in Sonar. I usually don't save the project in Synfire for the first time unless I decide to commit to using it. Would this have any undesirable effect? Does an unsaved Synfire arrangement have its own identity that gets replaced when you save it for the first time? If a drone gets assigned a new identity, does it signal to the DAW that it is dirty?
I think understanding the algorithm would help me remember to do things in the right order.
The drones are a brilliant idea and I won't quite give up on them yet. :-)
So., 17.11.2013 - 01:16 Permalink
Hi Scrapdog,
Ive had a similar issue with Ableton where I have saved the ableton file, then later saved the synfire project as ive made changes in synfire. Unfortunately ableton wont let me save the DAW file as it thinks its clean as I havent made any changes to it. Once Id worked out what was going wrong, I now just make a small change in the ableton file so I can save it. Now I always save the daw file after ive made changes to the synfire one, even if i have to make a change to the daw file so I can save it.
So., 17.11.2013 - 03:37 Permalink
I now just make a small change in the ableton file so I can save it
Thanks, this is a good idea.
I just tried setting up a brand new experiment project with Sonar and Synfire drones. I was very careful about the order of saving.
Everything worked fine, until I shut it down and started a new session.
Here is what I did:
1. Start Synfire
2. Open Synfire project, get message to start up Sonar and load the project
3. Start Sonar
4. Load Sonar project
5. Tell Synfire to continue
The project loads, Rewire transport is working, but drones no longer make sound (either through audition or playback).
:toobad:
So., 17.11.2013 - 11:28 Permalink
Just tested your procedure with Reaper and it works as expected with MIDI drones.
Does an unsaved Synfire arrangement have its own identity that gets replaced when you save it for the first time?
No. It receives its ID on creation and keeps it forever. Save As... does make a copy with a new ID.
If a drone gets assigned a new identity, does it signal to the DAW that it is dirty?
Good point. It absolutely should and I remember it does so, but I will check twice whether that also works for MIDI drones with no plug-in.
The drones are a brilliant idea and I won't quite give up on them yet.
I love them too, although, for maximum convenience, I start almost every project on the Engine first. I find that keeping track of two files in two programs is less cumbersome once the song as such has settled a bit.
So., 17.11.2013 - 23:35 Permalink
I've decided to stop trying to use Sonar (as much as I hate to give it up), due to its flaky Rewire behavior.
So I switched to Ableton Live.
It works for a little while, then Synfire starts complaining about this:
"All instruments of an arrangement should be hosted on the same Audio Engine or DAW to ensure proper timing."
Mo., 18.11.2013 - 06:23 Permalink
I tried several times at first, but had little luck with drones... And haven't tried for a while. I send SFP right to Midihardware, and when done export and import into. Maybe I'm getting old (I am) but it is too confusing for me. I quickly lose patience, if any activity takes to long, it drains away the 'creative juices', when you have to go into your 'technical debug' mode.
Ultimately it's my fault, I'm just being honest. My humble method works for me now at this point.. Perhaps I'll tackle the issue again.
Mo., 18.11.2013 - 08:55 Permalink
Hi Mark
your use of external instruments means you only really have use for midi drones and your choice of DAW precludes the use of plugins that generate midi. So unless you start to use soft synths you probably have no need of drones (assuming my thinking is correct)?
Di., 19.11.2013 - 11:32 Permalink
I've been on a MIDI Hardware kick for the last 3 years.. Went from having tons of keyboards, to all virtual instruments, and only a midi kbd controller.. Now I'm back to hardware.. I like the feeling of knobs, and sliders..
For now SFP talks directly to MIDI hardware. I set-up the patches (using Yamaha's MSB/LSB/Prog feature (thank you Andre).. I work in this mode and then export as MIDI and import into Logic. Lately the urge to make music is very strong, and I don't want to stop to figure why things don't work as expected (I know it's no-ones fault but mine).
I have plenty of softsynths, but the Tyros puts out such a 'breathing' sound.. Most virtual synths are missing that 'sparkle or aliveness (at least to my ears).. AND I want to work with the sounds I will end up using.. Not temp fill=ins. The richness or harmonic makeup of each instruement (VI or hardware) varies,, and for me, that alters somewhat how I will progress the song.
I will get back to the drones - But they kind of scare me, even the name 'drones'. It sounds omninous (joke)
Di., 19.11.2013 - 14:15 Permalink
Yes, drone sounds unpersonal, while working further in a DAW is needed for serious musicproduction.
Better is than perhaps to rename the drone into ExportVsti as a direct Vsti used in Synfire and MidiExportVsti for a free to choose Vsti in the DAW
For ExportVsti and MidiexportVsti you can export midi from Synfire
Di., 19.11.2013 - 23:18 Permalink
I just had a frustatrating run in with the cognitone drones.
I was working on a relatively simple 4 instrument piece in Synfire. I then wanted to use the drones to import it to Studio One. Well that was a nightmare. I followed the Synfire tutorial on this to the letter, except it didnt work.
I got Synfire and Studio One rewired together and playing in sync, no problem.
But then when I tried to transfer the midi total frustration! The direction say hold down shift to import the tempo maps. I did this and then something not covered in the videos happened . When I drug the midi onto the drone track in Studio One a pop up asked me if I wanted to use general midi, (never happens in the video!) I said no and clicked the tab.
A new window with a single track opened up! The file with the drones dissapeared . Amount later Studio One crashed. This happened each time I tried it 6x in a row!
I then gave up and tried the same thing in Logic Pro X. A different problem surfaced! I coud synchronize the two software programs, dargged the first midi in place, great so far. The when I clicked on the second tab for the drone to drag the next instrument track in nothing happened. I couldnt get the little page icon to appear so that I could drag it into place! This happened again on the remaining two tracks!
Incredibly frustrating! Please ,someone, save me!
Mi., 20.11.2013 - 11:04 Permalink
Drag & drop export from a drone is exactly the same as dropping a MIDI file from your desktop to the DAW. It literally does exactly that. Whatever happens while you are dragging and after you released the mouse, is the sole responsibility of the DAW. Every DAW has its own notion of dealing with drag & drop.
As a test, you can drag the file off a drone and drop it to your desktop. Open it with some utility or the DAW and look inside. If there should be something wrong with the file's contents, I can fix that. Just let me know.
Also try dropping other MIDI files to the DAW. It will behave the same way, even without Synfre or the drones being involved.
I'm sorry, Prado, but with your MIDI-only solution, it won't be any different ;-)
Mi., 20.11.2013 - 11:44 Permalink
Hi Richard
I remember that HALion5 was not suitable for relocating, but this is fixed
I try now also make a drone in Cubase 6.5 , but no drone showing up in Cubase 6.5 (64 bit)
Cubase 7 (32 bit ) is showing a drone.
I am using a 32 bit engine in Synfire , so with 32 bit Vsti and Cubase 64 bit there is no drone possible ?
Can for this made a error message ?
I will install a 32 bit Cubase version then or use a 64 bit engine in Synfire ?
I activated the 64 bit engine and : Engine2/x64 is showing up ..ok that is clear , but without the 64 bit engine activation i read only : Engine 1 ?? --> can you chance this in Engine1(32 bit) and Engine2(64 bit)
Userfriendlyness improvement ...
Further in the manual "page 157-3: visit the sync inspector ? ? ..there is only a transport tab .
Mi., 20.11.2013 - 12:25 Permalink
I got the drones working in Cubase 7.
Did I read correctly somewhere that AU units are not supported by the drones
The drag and drop works well in Cubase for me. Studio One crashes every time I try to do it.
I was having a really wierd problem when I was usin AU 64 /engine 2. The first drone could be drtagged into place but subsequent droneds showed no file when I tried to drag them into the respective tracks in Studio One as well as Logic Pro X. Is it a problem with AU 64 or am I doing something wrong?
I now would love to be able to get Cubase to follow the changes in tempo and time signature from Synfire when I drop the midi tracks/instruments into the DAW. Have not been able to make this work yet.
Can any body help me with this please?
I reaaly want to use the drones. I am still trying to get my head wrapped around their intricacies!
Mi., 20.11.2013 - 13:54 Permalink
I am trying also export a Vsti ( HALion5) to Cubase 32 bit ( the drone is showing up ), but it is not intuiatively that you can figure out from the soundtab in the arrangementview
Needed is the manual.. How to relocate (page 157)... point 3 is unclear.... point 5 also and again is this not enough
- Click on the port button ?
- select desired target drone ??
-
A hopeless manual ...written from a programmer perspective, a old issue here
Probably a video is needed here to get the right workflow
Mi., 20.11.2013 - 15:34 Permalink
The first drone could be drtagged into place but subsequent droneds showed no file when I tried to drag them
Is this a matter of sequence, or are the other drones possibly empty? Have you tried the drones in another order?
As for the tempo changes, you need to find out if and how Cubase imports these from MIDI files. Then you can use the drag & drop method, or drop the file on your desktop and import from there.
A hopeless manual
What is unclear about "Select the target drone", if a list of drones appears after clicking the button with the port name on it? If you want to move some content, you'll need a target for it. And that's a drone listed there. Maybe "destination" sounds more natural to you than "target", but effectively both are the same.
A manual can not explain everything in full and in advance. You need to try out with the software what's written there and then it will become clear. Please, I don't want to argue, but it is impossible to add a screenshot for every button and menu that eventually pops up. Synfire is way to huge for that. This would add up to 1000 pages and more. It would be impossible to earn the money and spend the time that is required to keep such a huge document up to date and translated.
Mi., 20.11.2013 - 16:34 Permalink
Should be handy to name the drone also in the video title
page 157": Load as many Drones .....
From de sound inspector of from the rack editor..the video for studio one shows from the rack editor and the manual works from the sound tab in the arrangement screen to select the desired target drone.
--------------------------------------
I do see now the source of confusion : Sounds tab (1) and Sound tab (2)
Sounds tab (also inthe arrangement screen) brings you to the rack editor screen and sound tab is on the arrangement screen too and in both screens you can assign the desired target drone(s) ..i think ?