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Bug in SFP Export?

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I was exporting a SFP song. I selected catagory and sound for every instrument.  When I 'imported' into Logic, three of the instruments didn't have a "LSB/MSB/Prog" assigned to them..

 

More puzzling is the fact that SFP exports the bass track with 6 measures of silence first.  I tried soloing the bass track from SFP and it still inserted 6 measures of silence.  All other tracks came out fine..   I did it twice.  

 

I included the SFP song, the bass is fine on track 11 assigned to midi 11

 

I included the SFP song MIDI Export file - bass late

 

I included a jpeg of SFP and Logic side by side to see where the bass is in each application

 

Looking at the bass event list in Logic I see that there are three C-press events and a Pitchbend event in there.  Not sure how it got there. But you don't hear it SFP when it plays. Maybe a connection?

 

The top 3 blue boxes in Logic called "SET UP" (my control sequence for each track includes all CC's filters, levels etc). are tracks that SFP did not assign a MSB/LSB/PROG for. Hence they started a measure late.  The bass also did not include an instrument set-up although all instruments were assigned device, midi channel, category, and prog. .....ANSWER - that was my fault somehow, those three boxes got their category and sound lost....  my mistake.....

 

For the sake of 'debugging' it would be nice if some of that data could be turned on to display in console, when needed, otherwise shut off.  For instance earlier in the day, SFP was playing but one channel of T4 was not getting MIDI on that channel. (T4 has a visual MIDI Transmit page and MIDI Receive page).  Handy to use when things aren't going right.  When T4 get's some conflicting data like it's receiving MIDI that channel will stop sounding.  The only remedy is to power on/off.  It happens every once in a while. To be fair the T4 was really designed to be played  live as a one man band.  Sending it all kinds of midi data, sysex,while it is playing sometimes 'confuses it'.  

 

Please consider 'staggering' the set-up of 16 midi channels.. Hardware cannot physically deal with all that one one clock count.  My standard for years (and many others is that measure 0 is for sound set-up, CC's sysex data that needs to be sent, so machine is ready.  I stagger the MSB/LSB/Prog,  That seems to be the most critical, filters, brightness, resonance, Attack, Decay, release, reverbs, effect sends etc.  seem to get through ok..

 

SFP definetly needs a bar, beat, sub beats counter too, People are going to want to slide certain instruments, (slow attack instruments, or just the human feel, of not exactly right) and if A/Bing or syncing with a DAW, it is a MUST HAVE.  

 

NOTE - one hour later.  I created another instrument with same sound changed to channel 15 , cut and pasted bass to that, exported and it was fine.  I went back to check original bass (on 11) , exported that bass solo, and it was fine to.  So somehow the problem went away, I did not change any note data in SFP file.   (I'm not making this up honest)

 

See FH-30-KOKBass.cognac

 

I noticed that when I created the same bass on midi 15 and midi 11 there is a significant difference in velocities of the notes, AHA = channel 11 had some velocity and step data in it,  When I copied the notes, the velocity and step data did not likewise get copied.  I must individually copy and parameters I have modified (now colored) right?   WOW.. 

 

See jpeg "STEP Differences" - No problem = this just displays the difference between the same track with some step data put in.  Where there is only one color the the two bass parts are exactly the same.  When I entered the step data, I more or less just changed the value by eye, nothing scientific about it.. sounds good. 

 

This post has been about three hours in the making.  learned a lot, still don't know what happened with the first pass of bass being late (is it something I might have inadvertantly done in SFP?

 

 


Wed, 2012-06-27 - 09:15 Permalink

I'd say it is impossible that Synfire shifts an instrument by 6 measures, unless you are using the Shift parameter. Or muted the instrument for 6 measures in another container. I may have missed a really obscured bug, though. If you can reproduce this, it would be helpful.

By the way, in Logic, you must keep MSB/LSB/PROG in the same midi region with all notes of that instrument, or Synfire will not match the correct sound on import. Each Logic region appears as a "track" on import.

 

Looking at the bass event list in Logic I see that there are three C-press events and a Pitchbend event in there.

This may have slipped in during recording. I had an EWI-USB wind instrument connected, forgot about it, and later wondered where all the breath controllers came from …

 

I must individually copy and parameters I have modified (now colored) right?

Copy the entire phrase: 

1. Click on instrument, Command-C 

2. Click on target instrument, Command-V

 

Looking at the long periods of silence each instrument has on your screenshots, I see you still do not use containers.  Working in a long linear instrument sheet without structure is cumbersome and you risk messing up the timing quickly. You also lose 80% of the power of music prototyping this way (moving parts around, trying different "narratives"). 

 

Frequent import/export of a whole song makes you lose structure and easily adds 500% more work. What is it that makes you avoid editing in Synfire?

 

Wed, 2012-06-27 - 09:52 Permalink

Yes, of course I keep msb/lsb/prog/ as part of main sequence.  

 

OK Command- C copies all note data and parameters = thanx...  

 

I started with small containers, but it's combursome for me to be working in the 3rd bass container, and want to see what's happening in the whole song.  I thought you put something in the parent container that would let you see the end result of all containers, but I forgot how you do that.  That of course would be helpful, I  could keep the small containers.  But I've always struggled with indecision,  (musicial and otherwise). I find I must force myself to commit to a certain musical idea, otherwise I get hopeless tangled up in the complexity of infinite variations,  Then I get stressed out, and even more unsure of my musical moves.  Working in logic I create a new version for every change.  I often end up with song version 200 or more..  And look how simple Logic is compared to SFP. 

 

As I get more familiar with  SFP's features, I'm sure my process will get refined, and since you stress small containers so much I'll pay more attention to it. 

 

In SFP After I've worked a bunch of containers I export it out, and re-import static, so it's all one linear file.  I can go back to earlier version if I need access to something, and it's just the way my brain is working lately.  It's a bit overwhelming that you could have 20-40 or more containers, each instrument having  30 or more parameters with all kinds of subnested routines in them.  The examples you've been seeing are 2nd, 3rd generation song ideas. 

 

Too me, when there are a lot of containers, I don't know how to quickly ascertain how or where the little bug is. I must search thru each container, looking if parameters have been altered..  I still don't remember how the velocity parameter got altered.  But there it was lit up. 

 

I'll get back to trying small containers (I promise!)

 

Thankx

Wed, 2012-06-27 - 11:38 Permalink

The container workflow is still not perfect yet, but as it is the intended way of prototyping, we are looking to make it as comfortable and intuitive as possible. Suggestions and critics are welcome. Versioning is on the agenda.

To get an overview of what is happening, uncollapse all instruments in the root container and put all phrases in subcontainers only. That will show a "shadow" of all figures spanning the entire song.

Enable View>>Trace Parameters to see which containers contain a vector for the selected parameter and instrument.

 

Logic is a way more complex software than Synfire, but it deals with simpler static data.