just worked with liquid notes...

Thanks for sharing your findings. To start with good news, a feature to help beginners with chord substitution is already high on the list.

You might answer now "that's all already possible with synfire:....."

Erm, yes (see below). But you are right in that there's not yet a simple right-click menu or similar feature to conveniently pick from a set of chords. That's what the proposed new feature is about.

I have had a look at Liquid Notes years ago and will certainly have another look now that you point this out. However, I'd think it would be impossible to "categorize each chord into 3 categories (functions)" for the following reasons.

Firstly, a harmonic function can only be applied to a subset of chord types (triads and extensions), and secondly, these chords have multiple functions in different keys at the same time. Even with parallel keys that are 100% identical concerning pitch classes, functions for the same chord are different. So which function a chord takes depends on context. The user is responsible for assigning this context (e.g. which key you feel you are currently in) and how long that context will prevail before switching to another. The notion that a series of chords belongs to one specific key is a myth.

One creative technique that makes chord progressions especially interesting is a shift in context, for example. That is, the listener would experience a particular function with a chord, while with the next one or two chords, a totally different function of that previous chord emerges in hindsight, which makes for a great effect (a key change, for example).

A simplified model that assigns each chord one function and a number of suitable replacements would miss out on many such great stuff you could do with a more general model (if there is any). That's why we have been hesitant to adding a "suggest next chord" or "suggest chord replacement" menu yet, fearing it would be too restrictive, putting off a more experienced audience. 

Now for what Synfire can do at the moment: 

• The Circle of 5th widget indicates which functions the selected chord has in whatever related key.
• By ticking the "Functions" box in the View menu, a chord's function in the current key is displayed as part of the progression boxes. 
• All sorts of functions also show up in a palette, if you enable them in the Layout menu.
• Synfire understands the full functional theory syntax, so you can add to a palette or progression any function you can imagine.

How to make use of this information is indeed subject to your own musical preference, experience and style. I understand how this can be overwhelming for beginners. We probably have to think about limiting ourselves to some simplified model in order to provide more convenience for beginners.

That's because liquid notes categorizes every chord into one of 3 possible functions (tonic, subtonic, dominat) and - most important, lets you choose from the amount of possible chords (substitutions) that can act as the respective function.

 The unique feature in Liquid Notes is that you first define only the degree of tension/gravity (quality of T, SD, D) for a "slot" in a progression and then you choose from the possible chords for this *fixed* quality/function. 

As Andre has said above, Synfire already does this but in a different way. You can display T, S, D labels on chords in both palettes and progressions. The chords marked as T, S, D are the same chords you get in Liquid Notes when you first fix one of those tensions and browse the chords that fall under that tension. The only difference is Liquid Notes hides chords under a dial whereas Synfire spreads them on a palette similar to a paint palette.

Note: chords that fall under T, S, D labels tend to differ between Synfire and Liquid Notes once the dissonance of chords become high in Liquid Notes i.e. when the dial becomes orange or red.

Btw.: Currently my workflow is as follows:

1. Synfire: Create some figure with any chord progression. Export as midi file.

2. Liquid notes: Import the midi file. Try to find the actual chord progression.

3. Synfire: Re create the progression: Type in the displayed chords from Liquid Notes.

If all you are using Liquid Notes is to get chords out of a melody why not just use Synfire's harmonizer?

Actually Liquid Notes has no (re)harmonization capability despite the company markets it to be so. For (re)harmonization the melody should be absolutely static and new chords should fit into that static melody. Synfire's harmonizer does exactly this. In Liquid Notes as soon as you change a chord the melody also changes. It just acts like Synfire's 'Progression' tab. There is an option in Liquid Notes to make notes static BUT if you change chords the new chords don't fit into the static notes at all like it is in Synfire's harmonizer. You'll get a lot of dissonance and it is not (re)harmonization.

In Synfire you can drag and drop a chord from the palette to chord progression. So, if you want to pick only Subdominant chords, you can drag and drop only S labeled chords from the palette. You can even replace one S labeled chord with another S labeled chord. This is just like turning the dial in Liquid Notes.

Also, if the melody is not final, don't go to Harmonizer tab, just stay in either Arrangement or Progressions tab and keep replacing chords with the same T/S/D label from the palette. This workflow is exactly like Liquid Notes except there is a palette instead of a dial.

A convenient new menu for picking replacement chords (by function, or whatever other criteria) would be a nice addition to Synfire. I'm absolutely convinced this makes sense. 

no reaction

Yes, you are right it, although it is related with chords
I  will remove my idea and the original topic is preserved

In my opinion a good compromise for your purposes, if I understand your needs, could be Liquid Music, by WaveDNA, a package especially well suited to those who work with Ableton Live and Max for Live. It offers guided harmonic/rhythmic paths and a fairly advanced control on the random elements of voicing. Synfire, always according to my opinion, is more oriented to experimentation than to the production of music for the entertainment industry. Liquid Music adopts a completely different workflow in respect to Synfire, you cannot consider it a direct competitor. But, again, if you need a package for commercial music production it might be more suitable for you: to me, Liquid Music looks like an advanced edition of Riff Generator by InSession Audio.

Hi RobertoD -- I also found Liquid Music (not to be confused with Liquid Notes, the product the OP is talking about) after reading this thread last night.  I'm starting to think it's a dead product though.  For example, their user forum has been obliterated by a spammer for the last week or so and it has gone uncorrected.  I tried their Liquid Rhythm product several years ago and found it very unstable.  Have you used theire Liquid Music product?

Also curious if folks have tried Liquid Notes.  One of the things that appeals to me after reading their site is the limited nature of the product -- it only manipulates harmony and otherwise leaves the job to Live.  My struggle with Synfire (I'm a month and a half into that really-long learning curve that you've all been through) is that it manages everything (sounds, figures, harmony, rhythm, structure, etc).  That makes it very powerful, but also very intrusive.  I love what it can do with harmony but I'm finding it very disruptive to my workflow.  Thoughts from people who use both would be much appreciated.

Hi!

I downloaded the trial version of Liquid Music. With MacOS is a bit cumbersome to install: requires Java + JDK, and it doesn't work with the localized versions of the latest MacOS (the Italian one, in my case). That is, the software runs, but the menus are grayed out and inaccessible.

The good news is that the developers of WaveDNA are still alive, and when I reported them the problem they replied promising a fix in a very short time. The last update of Liquid Music dates back to early August, I think. We're going to see.

Not being able to access the menus, I still have no way to study LM. But as far as I know it offers a "stochastic" approach to composition: the user defines the sequence of chords and the occurrences of the voices in percentage, then the program generates a polyphonic sequence.

Anyway, it seems to me that compared to Synfire, LM is primarily a more "pragmatic" software: the chordal progressions provided by the manufacturer are grouped by mood ("sad", "happy", "epic" and so on), and the tool to "paint" the chordal line is quite ingenious. Apparently, the statistical approach to refine the chords follows the trend of the various "riff generators" on the market (InSession Audio etc.), and I suppose that a musician can achieve more than satisfactory results in a short time, especially if, as you have noted, he or she works in Live/Max for Live.

Synfire, to me, is a philosophy of life rather than a pure software, and it seems to be thought for the most freak and adventurous musicians. Perhaps we can compare Synfire to Linux and Liquid Music to Windows (or MacOS), meaning that Synfire is a program that works on the assembly of musical molecules (the "segments"), i.e. it works from inside to outside, to form the big picture. Liquid Music, on the contrary, works from outside to inside, i.e. it allows you to manipulate as a single block a progression of chords, then adjusting how many and which notes you want for each voice (as a percentage). At least, this is what I understand.

I confess I'm attracted by either :-)

Summing up, Synfire generates quite easily complex counterpoints, and as such it seems more suitable for those who write jazz or film music. Liquid Music, on the other side, will generate quite interesting and busy chordal rhythms, being as such more pop-funk-oriented (but I could well be wrong)