Finallly, this is what Synfire has been missing and why people have been turned off by it in the past imo. Now it looks easier to use and more inviting (despite being an absolute beast under the hood lol) and I think this will draw a lot more people to it. If you add MIDI triggering to the chords you'll have a winner on your hands.
I'd just like to add a few simple suggestions to make it easier for people like me, a producer who has a great ear for chords and melody but cannot play them well myself.
Since Synfire's purpose is to help write songs, having simple functions like the following (mouse clickable) would be a (pardon the cliche) game changer for Synfire.
1. Randomizer algo for both chords/progressions and melody (beats too if possible) based on key and scale and time signatures and swing/shuffle chosen from a list. I know Synfore offers essentiallly this already but literally adding sections Chords, Melodyand Beat buttons would give a user a great starting point that isn't drenched in science or music theory. A lot of producers play by ear only and this would help them considerably. Including a 'humanize' option for both MIDI note delay, length and velocity would be icing on the cake:).
I know there is a 'Harmonizer' function in Synfire but using it in the past has produced undesirable results. The randomizer I'm thinking of will for instance, recognize the chord progression produced, then produce editable melodies based on that chord progression- regardless of whether it conforms to traditional music theory or not- as long as the melody notes produced are from the chords played (offering +/- octaves) that is all one needs. The figures graphic approach has always been confusing, so keep that under the hood and displaying a simple keyboard to the left- MIDI notes to the right is the best way to present this imo.
I of course appreciate the master composers from years gone, but honestly I am not at all inspired by over-used MIDI compositions, so simply using 'free MIDI' has never been an option for me personally, and as someone who composes a few styles of music, including some scoring I want to use original motifs in everything I do.
Imagine someone completely new to Synfire...After connecting MIDI channels to their favorite software and or hardware, now they want to sit down and start to get inspired. What could be easier than clicking on a 'Chords' button and just trying out some chord progressions to get the 'fire' started?
Having a 'demo' beat button would be cool too- whereas a simple 4/4 beat (or any time sig you choose) of 4-8 bars just starts playing...
This simple chords, beat, melody approach would give beginners (and advanced users) a simple way to get something started that they'll want to finish, rather than struggle with the myriad of concepts and functions Synfire has under the hood.
2. MIDI triggering of Chord palette for real time recording input. Randomizers are great, but we all like to pick our own chords/melodies too, so beinbg able to trigger them from a MIDI controller with a 'Learn' function would be invaluable.
I'm not knocking Synfire for what it is now, and I truly appreciate the amazing software you have created Andre, but it has always been difficult and very time consuming to learn what I really need to know to make songs using it. I'll draw a comparison to Cubase here, which I use extensively, but honestly I only use about 50% of what's it's capable of, and I haven't updated it since version 8.5 because I have exactly what I need to make and produce finished songs.
Same with Synfire, it has so many functions that it becomes confusing; simplfying the path to finishing songs is the key to making it a big success. All of the bells and whistles under the hood mean little if the user can't get inspired to even start, much less finish a song.
I'm not suggesting that you remove the advanced features of Synfire, but making it easier to make actual songs is key to it being successful in the future imo.
If people don't want advanced features they can use Harmony Navigator of course.
I've owned Synfire for 10 years now and have never been able to use it in a song that I've finished, but I'm hoping that will change once this new version gets released. Andre, if you need a beta tester on a Windows 7 machine, I'd be happy to give it a go with the new block/DAW interface.
I have many of the same issues with SFP as you. From the very start I have used vsts like Sugar bytes thesys to record midi into SFP. The game changer for me recently has been Scaler 2. With scaler you find the chords and then use SFP live detection to get the chord or near and then use scaler with the note binding to record melody. I am using ableton push and sometimes a standard midi keyboard to do this. The Ultimate would be scaler functionality inside of SFP. Hope this helps. Big thanks Andre looks amazing!
My problem is I'm a much better creative thinker than I am a logical thinker, so what might be easy for some to grasp technically, I find much more difficult- as is the case with Synfire. While I lack a natural ability to understand music theory, I never run out of ideas of how to accomplish a musical task with any instrument and I have a finely tuned ear whereas I can hear something and play it back note for note without having to see any notation, but of course that doesn't help me much with Synfire.
I'm never out of tune or off key when writing chord progressions or melodies, and that's where Synfire for me personally becomes uninspiring as the results it has produced for me always needed extensive editing to get the desired result. I determined that I could come up with something useable myself on piano keys faster than Synfire so why use it? That is definitely not to say it isn't useful- the chord palette is invaluable to pick out chords, but I wish they were triggerable via MIDI, as I had mentioned in my previous post.
In my case I've spent the last ten years becoming a better keys player and have worked on understanding articulations of various instruments and just being able to create realistic human-soundng performances. Any music interpreting software at this point has been used to inspire me. I don't think I've ever used a software-generated chord progression or melody without editing it to my liking.
Synfire's weakness imo has been the reliance on importing over-used classical MIDI libraries as a starting points, which to me personally are not at all inspiring in context to making modern music. I understand Synfire was originally aimed at a classical composers but that has changed and now I think we need modern, simplified composition tools to reflect the new musical styles that are relevent now. In my previous post I mentioned suggestions that I hope will at least be considered as I feel they will allow Synfire to reach a broader user-base.
Andre is now presenting the data from chord prgressions and melodies in the classic DAW structure which is exactly what I need personally to move forward in using Synfire when making songs and I'm sure others feel the same way. I don't think I will ever use just one piece of software to structure a song, but Synfire may soon be my main go-to software for creating chords and melodies.
I've heard of Scaler and other music interpreting software such as Liquid Notes, Captain Chords, and most recently Melody Sauce and none of them are doing anything much different from each other, besides using a different GUI, but what they all have in common is that they are simple to understand and use- even for novices.
The next version of Synfire Pro may be all of those programs rolled into one, which would be great...only Andre knows what his vision is at this point but I am optimistic that it will be a big improvement and make it more user-friendly for play-by-ear users such as myself.
Fent, can't you play the chords/progression into synfire using your midi keyboard and synfire's chord detection, and record phrases via midi direct into synfire? It isn't limited to just loading them from existing midi files.
Hey boss, when I first got Synfire 10 years ago (damn, time flies) I used a mouse with it and Synfire is perfect for that.
I orginally had it synced up to a Kurzweil keyboard and I could get simple ditty's started but I could never structure any real, useable motifs, much less a song- and it's definitely my fault for not being consistent and learning it. That being said, I found other ways to compensate for my lack of understanding Synfire and music theory and have produced many songs without it.
Now, I find myself producing scoring-type projects and I'm using mostly orchestral instruments and I realize this is where Synfire was meant to shine, hence my return to it as a source of inspiration.
I have never thought of it as an all-in-one as I like to use many different tools to make songs so I don't get bored and abandon a project. The whole 'figures' system never made sense to me coming from DAWs like Cubase and Logic and even after completing instrument setups and I still didn't understand most of what the functions were and why they were there. To put it bluntly, trying to use Synfire took the fun out of making music and that's the main reason why I do it- because I love it of course.
The upcoming linear DAW sequencer look will definitely help me because that's what I've been using for over 2 decades. As it is right now, I just can't wrap my head around the concepts or the functions- I tried again earlier today (without reading the manual) and I couldn't do anything- literally. I had a Montage keyboard set up as a MIDI controller and although I could see MIDI was being transmitted I couldn't hear anything in Synfire using Sprike or Windows MIDI. I even tried loopback to Montage and all I got was silence. I could see the Synfire's piano key layout being triggered- as well as groups of chords, but no sound, so again, I gave up and went to what works.
As it is right now Synfire doesn't even have a simple MIDI learn function for the chord palette. I've asked Andre about implementing it for as long as I've had Synfire and I can't understand why it isn't there- right click on a chord from the palette left click MIDI Learn and tap a key or pad on an external controller to trigger the chord- that right there would make it so much easier to enter chords in a more performance oriented way as the user could create nice chord progressions and 'play' them in using a row of 4 or 5 keys, or pads from any external controller. This would help prevent boring, static, point/click/drag structures as the user could play in the progressions with human feel, then adjust velocities of chord notes if needed. This is something that Synfire should have had from the get-go imo as it's an easy way to pick out chord progressions and let the user actually play them in rather than mouse clicking and dragging things in the GUI, which gets boring quick to me, and I'm sure others too. Being able to play and perform a sequence or a motif using your fingers is key to giving music made on a computer some soul, imo. Sure, you can drag notes around in a GUI but you'll never achieve the same emotional performances you can get when actually 'playing' in the chords and notes using something you can touch and apply pressure with(aftertouch, for instance) using your fingers.
Anyway, sorry about the subtle rant...I'm hoping Synfire 2 will be something that I can use in the future, but if not that's ok too.
As you may already be aware, East West Communications just released the Hollywood Orchestra Opus Edition with a new feature called Hollywood Orchestrator. I think Hollywood Orchestrator is a great feature, especially for a novice like me. No setup time at all, I just load a factory preset and I am running a full orchestra. Feed the chords and it drives the whole orchestra, in real time! Amazing! Can something like this be done with Synfire 2?
By its very design, Synfire definitely encourages a top-down workflow, i.e. you start with an idea ("what if ...") and have Synfire work it out. Bottom-up is the other way around, i.e. stuff begins to emerge from what your fingers are doing (knobs, faders, keys, pads, strings, etc). For that, Ableton Live is great, as it's centered around open ended performance and recording.
The KIM Factories of 2.0 ("Infinite Libraries"") will change things a lot towards intuitive exploration of rhythm and melodies. The biggest obstacle IMO was a lack of fresh phrases when you needed them. You know, unexpected surprises that cost you zero effort. Recording and editing is fine, but it can be pretty distracting if you're in an urge do accomplish something quickly.
Playing a palette with MIDI keys (Learn) is not hard to do. Synfire can play and record that, but to what end? You'd still need to edit the progression to make it work for all instruments. I'll have another look.
As we are at it. Regarding live performance use, I've got a BIG surprise for you in petto. It's called Snippets and is not unlike the grid of live loops in your DAW. Only that these loops contain phrases and parameters (not audio) and re-compose everything in real-time! With the click of a button you can change harmonies, dynamics, and any parameter you can think of. Wild stuff. I jammed with it today for the first time and was blown away. So much fun! Might do a video this weekend.
Hollywood Orchestrator sounds nice. I'd say Snippets will beat it hands down.
I've been taking a break from Synfire and midi, and getting into modular, which is the total inverse, getting away from mouseclicks and midi data, and picking up soldering irons and patch cables. Definitely bottom up compared to Synfire composing.
To what end?? I don't understand how, as a musician yourself, you can't see the importance of being able to 'play' in a chord progression by using one key/pad presses/pressure rather than point, click and dragging them with a mouse...Why do you think almost every pad based controller with software have chords linked directly to the pads, or MIDI learn functions? Playing a performance whether it be using multiple key chords or single key/pad chords is a much better way to create soulful, realistic, emotionally-driven performances. And isn't that what everyone is trying to avoid -the robotic, point/click/drag method of making songs?
Fent as i mentioned before you can play the chords in realtime and have synfire live detect the chords for the progression. What you currently cant to do is have those chords play with one key press, although its trivial to do that in many daws, so you press 1 key, the daw outputs the midi for the chord, synfire interprets the chord and adds it to the progression. Remember though, this is the chord progression, it doesnt play any notes unless you turn on the autochord function. Any expression is in the figure's parameters, the chord progression just influences the notes played by the figures.
You can also record the chord progression in real time clicking on the chords in the palette, no drag and drop needed.
Figures can be recorded real time too. Watch the tutorial videos for more details on how to do the real time stuff.
Still fixing bugs. Promised, it will knock your socks off! One more game changer that keeps me grinning all day. It will be the milestone that makes Synfire 2.0 feature complete. There's still a lot to be done, but the frame is set now.
You can also drag & drop snippets to Live, Logic X, or any other DAW's loop grid. But that eliminates most of the fun, as the snippets will become static.
By the way, other than DAW loops that essentially make you a DJ, Snippet's extreme dynamism is very useful for composing (including non-electronic music). I already use them on the fly to find phrases that go together. Hint: It's always those that still run in your head the next morning ;-)
If you have tons of generated phrase pools, you still need to decide how to combine them. The general rule of thumb is to contrast dense phrases with sparse ones, but that doesn't always work. Snippets make A/B testing easy.
I don't understand how, as a musician yourself, you can't see the importance of being able to 'play' in a chord progression by using one key/pad presses/pressure rather than point, click and dragging them with a mouse.
Yes, absolutely. Only playing chords with rhythm and dynamics gives you a Figure, not Harmony (Harmony is the road vs. Figure are the cars). It is possible to untangle and reduce that to a progression, albeit not in real-time (analysis requires the whole take).
As said, I need to play with this a little more to see if it is workable.
Snippets option is crazy, i like it, Bravo bravo bravo, can i found this in the Synfire 1.10.12 . Because i dont work anymore, and i dont found a new job at my age, my wife is the only job for the familly now.. can i have this Upate for free Andre please, when the Synfire 2 are here? How much its the price of this update ? That a bit stress to me..
I don't understand how, as a musician yourself, you can't see the importance of being able to 'play' in a chord progression by using one key/pad presses/pressure rather than point, click and dragging them with a mouse
Here's a peek into the new rack library and streamlined sound wizard. It was a lot of work that took way longer than expected. Not so much a new 'feature', more an improved user interface, but hey. I hope this will finally put the confusion with sound setup to rest for good.
For me its complicate again, i understand what this options do, but to much to much click and after sometime on the video i feel me lost.
For me Andre you have to work on this to be more evidente and clear, because to much folder, to much read, to much wrigting, and this is not realy clear for somebody come on Synfire and dont know nothing about..
This is in my opinion, on the problem synfire have and why is not something we can use like a charm everyday..
For me Synfire is the best, but its like a wooman with no voice, to much sign, to much wrigting, can take to much time to be in love everyday and one day we are to tired to do more, we stop to comunicate ...
Andre excuse me realy, but take time to developpe a real langage Synfire, with symbol, with classic preset and all, because is not possible to click 150 times to create something in the setup for all, and that hard to be happy at the end, because we see a save...
Sorry for my english, but Andre the Synfire 2 have to be a bit more modern on this point, if need a licence of aeronotik to use it, in the setup that not a good way to be in use with it and no stress.
Maybe im alone to think that, i dont know.. Look scaler, look Remidi2, look Sundog, Melodyne, Revoicer pro, Instascales or Instachords etc, Synfire its minimum 5 time more complicate to use of all, because the phase of the use the setup and preset etc is not working well, its to scientifique touch, need a bit to simplfy Synfire on the setup and the global use..
the drag and drop is perfect perfect pertfect, amaizing, but the heart of Synfire need to be developpe a bit more modern... not with a high school approch, but with a user friendly and young approach.. (sorry but only old pappy like us can take time to use it like that, its to to complicate minimum 10 click to open only )
hope you understand me Andre, you have a to big head scientist, you need to hunt help from the base, more young more noob, to developpe more simple now..and this can be a revolution.
I realy realy dont want hurt no one here , please sorry if i do it, that not my target.
I Love Synfire ( in reality better to say, i always try )
Trying to simplify a complex program is a good way of making it more complex. The examples you mention is like saying Microsoft Word needs to by easier to use, just look how easy Notepad is...
Getting a junior developer to clean things up is probably the worst possible thing you could do. If a building where complicated to construct, would the solution be to fire the senior engineer and hire someone "more young more noob"?
More "modern" is very arbitrary, when people give me specs like that I just hand them back (I'm a system developer).
What would be helpful would be to hire a senior UX designer that is a musician themselves but that would probably be around 10-20k USD a month. Then the developer(s) will need to implement the suggestions from the designer. So what might seem like something easy to fix is actually very expensive and requires a huge change in workflow for the company.
I'm not saying Synfire is perfect, I would too love to have a more streamlined and intuitive (more arbitrary words without any meaning...) GUI but being a developer myself, I know it's a much harder task than it might seem.
Also, how long didn't it take for Microsoft Word to get a decent UX? 15-20 years? I'm pretty sure they have more resources than Cognitone.
But my friend in 2021 IA and XIA do music for me when i sleep, with just my feet movement, people dont follow this kind of thinks, people want walking on the moon.
Only old people like us can anderstand, that why maybe we go to be erase by the world , we are to slow...
Maybe Synfire do a remake to BACK TO THE FUTUR, whenever. if he do that, my love for him is forever..
Again, Synfire is complex to use because of its many features. If you can only do one thing in a program you will only need one button. Synfire is way more complex than that. If you hide away everything in Synfire instead of displaying everything at your fingertips, Synfire will be even more complicated (we should differentiate between complex and complicated) to use.
I'm not old btw, I just left my twenties.
Please, give me an example of a program that is similar to Synfire in its complexity but easy to use, would love to see an example!
Oscar, i dont want disturb you, i dont want nerve you, i just give a opinion. forgot my friend.
just need to put Synfire multilangage imperatively. french please
Im not afraid to suffer in producing..im from there.
PLease dont forgot
not only english german, need french spanish langage in Synfire, Cognitone have to do it for real that not a joke.. be serious on that Cognitone please
Andre say he go to do a book in english many years a go, i never see it no where ..
No worries! No Covid, no heart attack, no alien abduction, no desperate jump from a roof :-) Everything is fine and on track. Sorry for the long silence. I'll show a few more details the coming days. Rest assured, I can't wait anymore too. This will be THE milestone for Cognitone and all users.
Current estimate is some time in October. There won't be much of a beta ready before that, unfortunately. This schedule is already very tight.
I am so glad we can roll out alien abduction. I was getting a little worried about that possibility. Love and appreciate you Andre thank you for all your hard work
Containers, instruments (tracks), segments and symbols all can be muted (disabled) individually
Chord inversion and voicing (close, open) can now be set per each 'Chord' segment
A new transformation 'Reverse Values' keeps rhythm while arranging values (symbols, pitch, CC) in reverse order, e.g. you can reverse a melody w/o changing its rhythm!
A new transformation 'Jazz Up', 'Jazz Down' adds or removes chord extensions to a progression
A new Output parameter shows a piano roll with final rendered notes (read-only, but useful to see the effect of any parameter change, especially Interpretation settings, in an instant).
And dozens improvements more.
Tools
There's a new eraser tool, scissors tool and mute tool.
Dimmed orange LED color now indicates a parameter that is not set, but can be derived from Figure, so you can drag those anyway.
New Symbol Type 'Relative'
Symbol type 'Chord' (green) has huge overlap with type 'Vertical' (cyan). There is now a single type 'Chord' (green) that works like the former Arpeggio type (purple). A new 'Relative' type now comes with 2.0 with interesting features:
Anchor is mapped like 'Chord', i.e. based on the chord's current inversion and voicing.
Any additional symbols right or left are mapped relative to that on the vertical scale.
Effectively, this combines the green and cyan symbols into a single segment. For example, you can have a melodic line that starts at the current top note of the chord and continues from that (see pictures). Similarly you could have a line that starts from the 3rd, 5th, the bottom note, etc.
This was not previously possible, because vertical scale symbols have no idea what the current chord is (size, intervals, inversion, etc). The new 'Relative' type allows for great portable Figures that render beautiful patterns.
Input:
Output:
Redesigned SMF Import Dialog
This dialog has been redesigned to be more intuitive and easier to navigate (see pictures).
Comments
Sat, 2021-05-01 - 14:57 Permalink
Finallly, this is what Synfire has been missing and why people have been turned off by it in the past imo. Now it looks easier to use and more inviting (despite being an absolute beast under the hood lol) and I think this will draw a lot more people to it. If you add MIDI triggering to the chords you'll have a winner on your hands.
I'd just like to add a few simple suggestions to make it easier for people like me, a producer who has a great ear for chords and melody but cannot play them well myself.
Since Synfire's purpose is to help write songs, having simple functions like the following (mouse clickable) would be a (pardon the cliche) game changer for Synfire.
1. Randomizer algo for both chords/progressions and melody (beats too if possible) based on key and scale and time signatures and swing/shuffle chosen from a list. I know Synfore offers essentiallly this already but literally adding sections Chords, Melodyand Beat buttons would give a user a great starting point that isn't drenched in science or music theory. A lot of producers play by ear only and this would help them considerably. Including a 'humanize' option for both MIDI note delay, length and velocity would be icing on the cake:).
I know there is a 'Harmonizer' function in Synfire but using it in the past has produced undesirable results. The randomizer I'm thinking of will for instance, recognize the chord progression produced, then produce editable melodies based on that chord progression- regardless of whether it conforms to traditional music theory or not- as long as the melody notes produced are from the chords played (offering +/- octaves) that is all one needs. The figures graphic approach has always been confusing, so keep that under the hood and displaying a simple keyboard to the left- MIDI notes to the right is the best way to present this imo.
I of course appreciate the master composers from years gone, but honestly I am not at all inspired by over-used MIDI compositions, so simply using 'free MIDI' has never been an option for me personally, and as someone who composes a few styles of music, including some scoring I want to use original motifs in everything I do.
Imagine someone completely new to Synfire...After connecting MIDI channels to their favorite software and or hardware, now they want to sit down and start to get inspired. What could be easier than clicking on a 'Chords' button and just trying out some chord progressions to get the 'fire' started?
Having a 'demo' beat button would be cool too- whereas a simple 4/4 beat (or any time sig you choose) of 4-8 bars just starts playing...
This simple chords, beat, melody approach would give beginners (and advanced users) a simple way to get something started that they'll want to finish, rather than struggle with the myriad of concepts and functions Synfire has under the hood.
2. MIDI triggering of Chord palette for real time recording input. Randomizers are great, but we all like to pick our own chords/melodies too, so beinbg able to trigger them from a MIDI controller with a 'Learn' function would be invaluable.
I'm not knocking Synfire for what it is now, and I truly appreciate the amazing software you have created Andre, but it has always been difficult and very time consuming to learn what I really need to know to make songs using it. I'll draw a comparison to Cubase here, which I use extensively, but honestly I only use about 50% of what's it's capable of, and I haven't updated it since version 8.5 because I have exactly what I need to make and produce finished songs.
Same with Synfire, it has so many functions that it becomes confusing; simplfying the path to finishing songs is the key to making it a big success. All of the bells and whistles under the hood mean little if the user can't get inspired to even start, much less finish a song.
I'm not suggesting that you remove the advanced features of Synfire, but making it easier to make actual songs is key to it being successful in the future imo.
If people don't want advanced features they can use Harmony Navigator of course.
I've owned Synfire for 10 years now and have never been able to use it in a song that I've finished, but I'm hoping that will change once this new version gets released. Andre, if you need a beta tester on a Windows 7 machine, I'd be happy to give it a go with the new block/DAW interface.
Keep up the great work!:)
Sun, 2021-05-02 - 03:05 Permalink
I have been using syfnire since '09 and finished tons of music. Most recently this fictional soundtrack to a Mars Mission. (https://groversfernhead.bandcamp.com/album/the-winds-of-mars)
I have many of the same issues with SFP as you. From the very start I have used vsts like Sugar bytes thesys to record midi into SFP. The game changer for me recently has been Scaler 2. With scaler you find the chords and then use SFP live detection to get the chord or near and then use scaler with the note binding to record melody. I am using ableton push and sometimes a standard midi keyboard to do this. The Ultimate would be scaler functionality inside of SFP. Hope this helps. Big thanks Andre looks amazing!
Sun, 2021-05-02 - 15:39 Permalink
My problem is I'm a much better creative thinker than I am a logical thinker, so what might be easy for some to grasp technically, I find much more difficult- as is the case with Synfire. While I lack a natural ability to understand music theory, I never run out of ideas of how to accomplish a musical task with any instrument and I have a finely tuned ear whereas I can hear something and play it back note for note without having to see any notation, but of course that doesn't help me much with Synfire.
I'm never out of tune or off key when writing chord progressions or melodies, and that's where Synfire for me personally becomes uninspiring as the results it has produced for me always needed extensive editing to get the desired result. I determined that I could come up with something useable myself on piano keys faster than Synfire so why use it? That is definitely not to say it isn't useful- the chord palette is invaluable to pick out chords, but I wish they were triggerable via MIDI, as I had mentioned in my previous post.
In my case I've spent the last ten years becoming a better keys player and have worked on understanding articulations of various instruments and just being able to create realistic human-soundng performances. Any music interpreting software at this point has been used to inspire me. I don't think I've ever used a software-generated chord progression or melody without editing it to my liking.
Synfire's weakness imo has been the reliance on importing over-used classical MIDI libraries as a starting points, which to me personally are not at all inspiring in context to making modern music. I understand Synfire was originally aimed at a classical composers but that has changed and now I think we need modern, simplified composition tools to reflect the new musical styles that are relevent now. In my previous post I mentioned suggestions that I hope will at least be considered as I feel they will allow Synfire to reach a broader user-base.
Andre is now presenting the data from chord prgressions and melodies in the classic DAW structure which is exactly what I need personally to move forward in using Synfire when making songs and I'm sure others feel the same way. I don't think I will ever use just one piece of software to structure a song, but Synfire may soon be my main go-to software for creating chords and melodies.
I've heard of Scaler and other music interpreting software such as Liquid Notes, Captain Chords, and most recently Melody Sauce and none of them are doing anything much different from each other, besides using a different GUI, but what they all have in common is that they are simple to understand and use- even for novices.
The next version of Synfire Pro may be all of those programs rolled into one, which would be great...only Andre knows what his vision is at this point but I am optimistic that it will be a big improvement and make it more user-friendly for play-by-ear users such as myself.
Sun, 2021-05-02 - 23:14 Permalink
Fent, can't you play the chords/progression into synfire using your midi keyboard and synfire's chord detection, and record phrases via midi direct into synfire? It isn't limited to just loading them from existing midi files.
Mon, 2021-05-03 - 01:02 Permalink
Hey boss, when I first got Synfire 10 years ago (damn, time flies) I used a mouse with it and Synfire is perfect for that.
I orginally had it synced up to a Kurzweil keyboard and I could get simple ditty's started but I could never structure any real, useable motifs, much less a song- and it's definitely my fault for not being consistent and learning it. That being said, I found other ways to compensate for my lack of understanding Synfire and music theory and have produced many songs without it.
Now, I find myself producing scoring-type projects and I'm using mostly orchestral instruments and I realize this is where Synfire was meant to shine, hence my return to it as a source of inspiration.
I have never thought of it as an all-in-one as I like to use many different tools to make songs so I don't get bored and abandon a project. The whole 'figures' system never made sense to me coming from DAWs like Cubase and Logic and even after completing instrument setups and I still didn't understand most of what the functions were and why they were there. To put it bluntly, trying to use Synfire took the fun out of making music and that's the main reason why I do it- because I love it of course.
The upcoming linear DAW sequencer look will definitely help me because that's what I've been using for over 2 decades. As it is right now, I just can't wrap my head around the concepts or the functions- I tried again earlier today (without reading the manual) and I couldn't do anything- literally. I had a Montage keyboard set up as a MIDI controller and although I could see MIDI was being transmitted I couldn't hear anything in Synfire using Sprike or Windows MIDI. I even tried loopback to Montage and all I got was silence. I could see the Synfire's piano key layout being triggered- as well as groups of chords, but no sound, so again, I gave up and went to what works.
As it is right now Synfire doesn't even have a simple MIDI learn function for the chord palette. I've asked Andre about implementing it for as long as I've had Synfire and I can't understand why it isn't there- right click on a chord from the palette left click MIDI Learn and tap a key or pad on an external controller to trigger the chord- that right there would make it so much easier to enter chords in a more performance oriented way as the user could create nice chord progressions and 'play' them in using a row of 4 or 5 keys, or pads from any external controller. This would help prevent boring, static, point/click/drag structures as the user could play in the progressions with human feel, then adjust velocities of chord notes if needed. This is something that Synfire should have had from the get-go imo as it's an easy way to pick out chord progressions and let the user actually play them in rather than mouse clicking and dragging things in the GUI, which gets boring quick to me, and I'm sure others too. Being able to play and perform a sequence or a motif using your fingers is key to giving music made on a computer some soul, imo. Sure, you can drag notes around in a GUI but you'll never achieve the same emotional performances you can get when actually 'playing' in the chords and notes using something you can touch and apply pressure with(aftertouch, for instance) using your fingers.
Anyway, sorry about the subtle rant...I'm hoping Synfire 2 will be something that I can use in the future, but if not that's ok too.
Fri, 2021-05-07 - 19:22 Permalink
Hi Andre,
As you may already be aware, East West Communications just released the Hollywood Orchestra Opus Edition with a new feature called Hollywood Orchestrator. I think Hollywood Orchestrator is a great feature, especially for a novice like me. No setup time at all, I just load a factory preset and I am running a full orchestra. Feed the chords and it drives the whole orchestra, in real time! Amazing! Can something like this be done with Synfire 2?
Thanks
Fri, 2021-05-07 - 21:42 Permalink
By its very design, Synfire definitely encourages a top-down workflow, i.e. you start with an idea ("what if ...") and have Synfire work it out. Bottom-up is the other way around, i.e. stuff begins to emerge from what your fingers are doing (knobs, faders, keys, pads, strings, etc). For that, Ableton Live is great, as it's centered around open ended performance and recording.
The KIM Factories of 2.0 ("Infinite Libraries"") will change things a lot towards intuitive exploration of rhythm and melodies. The biggest obstacle IMO was a lack of fresh phrases when you needed them. You know, unexpected surprises that cost you zero effort. Recording and editing is fine, but it can be pretty distracting if you're in an urge do accomplish something quickly.
Playing a palette with MIDI keys (Learn) is not hard to do. Synfire can play and record that, but to what end? You'd still need to edit the progression to make it work for all instruments. I'll have another look.
As we are at it. Regarding live performance use, I've got a BIG surprise for you in petto. It's called Snippets and is not unlike the grid of live loops in your DAW. Only that these loops contain phrases and parameters (not audio) and re-compose everything in real-time! With the click of a button you can change harmonies, dynamics, and any parameter you can think of. Wild stuff. I jammed with it today for the first time and was blown away. So much fun! Might do a video this weekend.
Hollywood Orchestrator sounds nice. I'd say Snippets will beat it hands down.
Fri, 2021-05-07 - 21:55 Permalink
Thank you Andre! You just put a smile on my face! Can't wait to try...
Fri, 2021-05-07 - 22:09 Permalink
Great stuff Andre.
I've been taking a break from Synfire and midi, and getting into modular, which is the total inverse, getting away from mouseclicks and midi data, and picking up soldering irons and patch cables. Definitely bottom up compared to Synfire composing.
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Fri, 2021-05-07 - 22:25 Permalink
To what end?? I don't understand how, as a musician yourself, you can't see the importance of being able to 'play' in a chord progression by using one key/pad presses/pressure rather than point, click and dragging them with a mouse...Why do you think almost every pad based controller with software have chords linked directly to the pads, or MIDI learn functions? Playing a performance whether it be using multiple key chords or single key/pad chords is a much better way to create soulful, realistic, emotionally-driven performances. And isn't that what everyone is trying to avoid -the robotic, point/click/drag method of making songs?
Fri, 2021-05-07 - 22:54 Permalink
Fent as i mentioned before you can play the chords in realtime and have synfire live detect the chords for the progression. What you currently cant to do is have those chords play with one key press, although its trivial to do that in many daws, so you press 1 key, the daw outputs the midi for the chord, synfire interprets the chord and adds it to the progression. Remember though, this is the chord progression, it doesnt play any notes unless you turn on the autochord function. Any expression is in the figure's parameters, the chord progression just influences the notes played by the figures.
You can also record the chord progression in real time clicking on the chords in the palette, no drag and drop needed.
Figures can be recorded real time too. Watch the tutorial videos for more details on how to do the real time stuff.
Sat, 2021-05-08 - 09:22 Permalink
Yes, Cubase has his "chord pads" and recently got a "scale assistent"
How to work with Chord Pads in Cubase (musictech.net)
Fri, 2021-05-14 - 00:09 Permalink
Snippets sounds like a massive workflow improvement. If a little more love is shown Andre might just do the video he hinted at.
Sat, 2021-05-15 - 21:44 Permalink
Still fixing bugs. Promised, it will knock your socks off! One more game changer that keeps me grinning all day. It will be the milestone that makes Synfire 2.0 feature complete. There's still a lot to be done, but the frame is set now.
Sun, 2021-05-16 - 20:23 Permalink
Here's a first look. Enjoy ;-)
Sun, 2021-05-16 - 21:13 Permalink
"Improvise in real time"...... the stuff of dreams. Thank You! Can you trigger the snippets with a midi controller like ableton live?
Sun, 2021-05-16 - 21:36 Permalink
No yet, maybe Touch OSC?
You can also drag & drop snippets to Live, Logic X, or any other DAW's loop grid. But that eliminates most of the fun, as the snippets will become static.
Sun, 2021-05-16 - 21:42 Permalink
Touch OSC would be great. Incredible work you are doing. thanks so much.
Mon, 2021-05-17 - 09:39 Permalink
By the way, other than DAW loops that essentially make you a DJ, Snippet's extreme dynamism is very useful for composing (including non-electronic music). I already use them on the fly to find phrases that go together. Hint: It's always those that still run in your head the next morning ;-)
If you have tons of generated phrase pools, you still need to decide how to combine them. The general rule of thumb is to contrast dense phrases with sparse ones, but that doesn't always work. Snippets make A/B testing easy.
Mon, 2021-05-17 - 10:11 Permalink
Yes, absolutely. Only playing chords with rhythm and dynamics gives you a Figure, not Harmony (Harmony is the road vs. Figure are the cars). It is possible to untangle and reduce that to a progression, albeit not in real-time (analysis requires the whole take).
As said, I need to play with this a little more to see if it is workable.
Thanks for bringing it up.
Tue, 2021-05-18 - 12:24 Permalink
Thanks for the video ... now looking for my socks.
Tue, 2021-05-18 - 13:40 Permalink
Andre, it's looking great, like it will be fun to use- I love the 'snippets' concept:). You may have to rename your software to Funfire lol.
And, you're welcome for reminding you:).
Sun, 2021-06-06 - 07:40 Permalink
Snippets option is crazy, i like it, Bravo bravo bravo, can i found this in the Synfire 1.10.12 . Because i dont work anymore, and i dont found a new job at my age, my wife is the only job for the familly now.. can i have this Upate for free Andre please, when the Synfire 2 are here? How much its the price of this update ? That a bit stress to me..
Mon, 2021-06-07 - 22:40 Permalink
Do you mean something like Scaler?
Tue, 2021-06-08 - 01:22 Permalink
I am so f*****g excited about Synfire 2.0 , I can barely CONTAINER myself.
Seriously, I am anticipating this more than any other product out there.
Tue, 2021-06-08 - 09:44 Permalink
Will VST3 be supported in 2.0?
Mon, 2021-06-14 - 08:13 Permalink
Hi Andre
are extended/customisable key commands on the feature list please?
Thanks
Mon, 2021-06-14 - 13:24 Permalink
Here's a peek into the new rack library and streamlined sound wizard. It was a lot of work that took way longer than expected. Not so much a new 'feature', more an improved user interface, but hey. I hope this will finally put the confusion with sound setup to rest for good.
Mon, 2021-06-21 - 05:34 Permalink
This looks great and is something I have had a problem with through the years.
Fri, 2021-07-16 - 19:00 Permalink
Updates look incredible Andre. Can't wait to use it.
Is there a set release date :)
Fri, 2021-07-16 - 21:31 Permalink
Any chance we can get autosave. I just lost a song......again.
Mon, 2021-07-19 - 08:19 Permalink
For me its complicate again, i understand what this options do, but to much to much click and after sometime on the video i feel me lost.
For me Andre you have to work on this to be more evidente and clear, because to much folder, to much read, to much wrigting, and this is not realy clear for somebody come on Synfire and dont know nothing about..
This is in my opinion, on the problem synfire have and why is not something we can use like a charm everyday..
For me Synfire is the best, but its like a wooman with no voice, to much sign, to much wrigting, can take to much time to be in love everyday and one day we are to tired to do more, we stop to comunicate ...
Andre excuse me realy, but take time to developpe a real langage Synfire, with symbol, with classic preset and all, because is not possible to click 150 times to create something in the setup for all, and that hard to be happy at the end, because we see a save...
Sorry for my english, but Andre the Synfire 2 have to be a bit more modern on this point, if need a licence of aeronotik to use it, in the setup that not a good way to be in use with it and no stress.
Maybe im alone to think that, i dont know.. Look scaler, look Remidi2, look Sundog, Melodyne, Revoicer pro, Instascales or Instachords etc, Synfire its minimum 5 time more complicate to use of all, because the phase of the use the setup and preset etc is not working well, its to scientifique touch, need a bit to simplfy Synfire on the setup and the global use..
the drag and drop is perfect perfect pertfect, amaizing, but the heart of Synfire need to be developpe a bit more modern... not with a high school approch, but with a user friendly and young approach.. (sorry but only old pappy like us can take time to use it like that, its to to complicate minimum 10 click to open only )
hope you understand me Andre, you have a to big head scientist, you need to hunt help from the base, more young more noob, to developpe more simple now..and this can be a revolution.
I realy realy dont want hurt no one here , please sorry if i do it, that not my target.
I Love Synfire ( in reality better to say, i always try )
Mon, 2021-07-19 - 09:12 Permalink
Trying to simplify a complex program is a good way of making it more complex. The examples you mention is like saying Microsoft Word needs to by easier to use, just look how easy Notepad is...
Getting a junior developer to clean things up is probably the worst possible thing you could do. If a building where complicated to construct, would the solution be to fire the senior engineer and hire someone "more young more noob"?
More "modern" is very arbitrary, when people give me specs like that I just hand them back (I'm a system developer).
What would be helpful would be to hire a senior UX designer that is a musician themselves but that would probably be around 10-20k USD a month. Then the developer(s) will need to implement the suggestions from the designer. So what might seem like something easy to fix is actually very expensive and requires a huge change in workflow for the company.
I'm not saying Synfire is perfect, I would too love to have a more streamlined and intuitive (more arbitrary words without any meaning...) GUI but being a developer myself, I know it's a much harder task than it might seem.
Also, how long didn't it take for Microsoft Word to get a decent UX? 15-20 years? I'm pretty sure they have more resources than Cognitone.
Mon, 2021-07-19 - 09:34 Permalink
What you say is true to.
But my friend in 2021 IA and XIA do music for me when i sleep, with just my feet movement, people dont follow this kind of thinks, people want walking on the moon.
Only old people like us can anderstand, that why maybe we go to be erase by the world , we are to slow...
Maybe Synfire do a remake to BACK TO THE FUTUR, whenever. if he do that, my love for him is forever..
Papy's team in effect
Mon, 2021-07-19 - 09:43 Permalink
Again, Synfire is complex to use because of its many features. If you can only do one thing in a program you will only need one button. Synfire is way more complex than that. If you hide away everything in Synfire instead of displaying everything at your fingertips, Synfire will be even more complicated (we should differentiate between complex and complicated) to use.
I'm not old btw, I just left my twenties.
Please, give me an example of a program that is similar to Synfire in its complexity but easy to use, would love to see an example!
Mon, 2021-07-19 - 10:19 Permalink
Oscar, i dont want disturb you, i dont want nerve you, i just give a opinion. forgot my friend.
just need to put Synfire multilangage imperatively. french please
Im not afraid to suffer in producing..im from there.
PLease dont forgot
not only english german, need french spanish langage in Synfire, Cognitone have to do it for real that not a joke.. be serious on that Cognitone please
Andre say he go to do a book in english many years a go, i never see it no where ..
i want it if he exist..?
Mon, 2021-07-19 - 17:45 Permalink
The first hit when you google "synfire manual" is the manual for Synfire in English: (https://www.cognitone.com/downloads/item.stml?p=10225)
Tue, 2021-07-20 - 01:21 Permalink
Thanks Oskar
Fri, 2021-08-06 - 04:41 Permalink
andre I will pay to get in the beta and start playing with this stuff
Fri, 2021-08-06 - 05:02 Permalink
Right there with you. The suspense is killing me.
Fri, 2021-08-06 - 05:36 Permalink
Count me in
Fri, 2021-08-06 - 15:26 Permalink
Me too! Can't wait to try!
Fri, 2021-08-06 - 18:45 Permalink
I'd also like to participate in a beta test.
Fri, 2021-08-06 - 20:08 Permalink
Hi Andre, please say something or anything about the beta! Don't leave us hanging, it's painful! :)
Fri, 2021-08-06 - 20:53 Permalink
No worries! No Covid, no heart attack, no alien abduction, no desperate jump from a roof :-) Everything is fine and on track. Sorry for the long silence. I'll show a few more details the coming days. Rest assured, I can't wait anymore too. This will be THE milestone for Cognitone and all users.
Current estimate is some time in October. There won't be much of a beta ready before that, unfortunately. This schedule is already very tight.
Thanks for your enthusiasm. Absoltely refreshing.
Fri, 2021-08-06 - 21:18 Permalink
I am so glad we can roll out alien abduction. I was getting a little worried about that possibility. Love and appreciate you Andre thank you for all your hard work
Sat, 2021-08-07 - 01:26 Permalink
Andre, thank you! It's for Halloween then, hopefully! :0)
...
Sun, 2021-08-08 - 13:34 Permalink
Thanks Andre for all this, stay young and with the power of the Jedi Night, God Bless You
Tue, 2021-08-10 - 10:31 Permalink
A few more details on 2.0:
And dozens improvements more.
Tools
There's a new eraser tool, scissors tool and mute tool.
Dimmed orange LED color now indicates a parameter that is not set, but can be derived from Figure, so you can drag those anyway.
New Symbol Type 'Relative'
Symbol type 'Chord' (green) has huge overlap with type 'Vertical' (cyan). There is now a single type 'Chord' (green) that works like the former Arpeggio type (purple). A new 'Relative' type now comes with 2.0 with interesting features:
Effectively, this combines the green and cyan symbols into a single segment. For example, you can have a melodic line that starts at the current top note of the chord and continues from that (see pictures). Similarly you could have a line that starts from the 3rd, 5th, the bottom note, etc.
This was not previously possible, because vertical scale symbols have no idea what the current chord is (size, intervals, inversion, etc). The new 'Relative' type allows for great portable Figures that render beautiful patterns.
Input:
Output:
Redesigned SMF Import Dialog
This dialog has been redesigned to be more intuitive and easier to navigate (see pictures).
Tue, 2021-08-10 - 16:40 Permalink
YEEEEESSSSSSS!!!!