
Posted
Node based DAW concept
Maybe the future of Synfire 3.0? Or perhaps Synfire could integrate a nodal view?
Thu, 2025-04-17 - 12:09 Permalink
Looks nice. That's essentially like our container structure only with much less parameters. Orb Composer followed a similar approach that fills sections with generative AI.
If you add parameters and more manual control however, nodes alone don't suffice. You'll eventually end up with a quasi-linear presentation that's similar to Synfire.
Abstract graphical representations of music seem to appeal especially to tech and science people, I guess (me included). Although some musicians and composers are very enthusiastic about algorithmic and generative systems, the vast majority is more comfortable with straightforward writing, recording and editing stuff that emerges in their head.
Synfire is somewhere in between. I think it's important that it continues to support manual editing.
Thu, 2025-04-17 - 19:22 Permalink
Thanks Andre. This concept doesn’t involve AI or note editing. It simply focuses on arrangement.
I wonder whether the arrangement view could have alternative views like this nodal view in Synfire. Snippets is the closest parallel. But Ableton style and Cubase style paradigms are not the only models we should aspire to.
Thu, 2025-05-01 - 14:24 Permalink
Thanks for sharing, but I may be missing some important point here. What new information exactly is presented in this graph view that Synfire's container nesting does not show? Do you feel this kind of representation is more concise and that way more easy to read for you?
BTW: I feel that Synfire's container structure is more powerful than this tree-like nesting for two reasons:
- The containers are represented in time, incl. supporting constraints like that subcontainers must be in strictly consecutive order.
- The overall form does not need to be strictly hierarchically nested. It can be nested, and this can be very useful, but lower-level containers can also temporarily overlap the boundaries of two higher-level containers (i.e. no strict hierarchic nested), and that is also very useful. This is possible, because in addition to hierarchic nesting, all containers are arranged in time, and not just a tree-like data structure.
Again, I might well be missing something in your suggestion, but so far I clearly prefer what Synfire already offers over a tree-like form representation (and I am saying that as someone who spend a few years developing the latter ;-)
Thu, 2025-05-01 - 16:24 Permalink
Thanks @tanders
I definitely agree that we shouldn't think of replacing the existing time-based container within container arranger view.
The node approach is intended to be complementary to time-based visualisations, drawing on parallels in graphics content creation and programming paradigms:
Specifically:
1. The containers are NOT represented in time, therefore:
- Containers can be flexibly arranged and rearranged visually without being tied to a linear timeline. This makes it easier to experiment with the structure and relationships between musical ideas. Not using a time-based representation allows composers and arrangers to freely explore and manipulate musical structures visually. This encourages experimentation and helps in understanding thematic and structural relationships without temporal constraints.
2. The overall form DOES need to be strictly hierarchically nested:
- Strict hierarchical nesting clearly defines structural relationships between musical components, simplifying the arrangement and organization of complex compositions. It simplifies navigating relationships, variations, and thematic developments, making it easier to comprehend and collaborate on compositions.