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I like to experiment with a melodic line and make from this a counterline of 1 octave below or a unison counterline or with some harmony notes in it
How to get this in SFP ?
Copy or snapshot ..take for this the midi import example in SFP
In general : given a melodic line in SFP and construct from this some counterlines
Fri, 2012-06-29 - 07:01 Permalink
One way would be to C - copy the track, create a 2nd track and C - Paste. Then transpose down an octave. You could make a couple of copies and transpose by a different amount, then cut/paste sections with different transpose.
There's other ways too - but this method I'm familar yet.
Sat, 2012-06-30 - 10:25 Permalink
Thanks!
I am interested what the is the best workflow for this, so ..with snapshot container or copy container ?
In counterlines(point), it can be that harmony plays a role, say .. for some bars the 2 played instrument notes are harmony notes.. i do want to do this too in SFP.
I can open both phrase editors at the same time and than chance some symbol position ..when is a part of the 2 line following a serie of harmony notes?...how to get this harmony in SFP?
Say i have two unisons lines from a violin I and violin II for 8 bar phrase and in the second four bars i let the violins play harmony notes together.
I start first wit a copy procedure for the second melodyline and than chance the copy ... how to get the right interval between the note symbols ?
Sat, 2012-06-30 - 18:52 Permalink
Won't the lines in the phrase editor equate to a multiple of intervals based on the current scale selected? Transposing the way I suggested shows the piano keyboard so you can select a new middle note by transposing chromatically although sf would probably only use this as a guide to ensure musicality (is that a word? Mean make I sound good)
There is also the transpose parameter and obviously cursor down will shft th notes down using intervals that fit th scale. You could start a loop running then select the notes to shift, and cursor down, listen, repeat until you get something near what you are after?
Sun, 2012-07-01 - 00:32 Permalink
Can you find a explanation in the manual how the phrase editor symbols for a horizontal scale are organized ?
If i use the symbol tool ( take the Example Melody.mid included in SFP amd import this )
Perhaps we can find out how it is build up, because i can't find it in the manual.
I think when it are only "diatonic" note symbols that is the major scale
There are 7 white keys in a keyboard octave and there is one solid horizontal line??
The fact that we try to reasoning how it works.. it is wrong way of working when it is not documented
I can't follow your reasoning for now.. i am sorry.
Even when this software cost almost nothing say 10 Euro .. you can't figure out how it exactly works..its useless ( for me) and too expensive for nothing.
Sun, 2012-07-01 - 01:17 Permalink
Hiya,
It took me ages to even begin to understand synfire. The hardest part for me was using it whilst thinking of how a normal daw works. The display in the phrase editor is not the same as a daw's piano role. Daw's don't have any idea of scales or keys, synfire is all about scales and keys.
The same phrase in synfire will produce different output if you change the key or scale although the notes will look exactly the same in the phrase. The lines on the phrase editor do not denote c, c#, d, d#, e, f, etc... They get interpreted based on scale, key, chord progression, playing range, etc.
I'm not very versed in musical theory, but I'm now starting to make stuff I like using synfire and it really has improved both my output and workflow (at least to my ears). Maye other people can explain it better.
Sun, 2012-07-01 - 02:31 Permalink
Well i get the idea that you also not know exactly how it works in the phrase editor.. in fact it is not that difficult if there is a good written manual or at least a video
I want to do counterpoint on the standard way so i chance the symbolposition of the second melodyline, but i think the bold vertical line is the rootnote of the scale in the phrase editor..so say form a diatonic scale like Cmajor you can go up 7 diatonic interval to start again on a c major scala ( only a octave higher)
A negative diatonic line ( -1 symbol) under the bold scale line is the b key
Chromatic..when you use the black keys ( as you know already)
Well that is my idea about this phrase editor ;)..how about this?
Note: if this is correct, than you know what keyboard key is used for a vertical note symbol position , say in case of C major ( the most simple scale).. with this you can ascertain the right interval for the counterpoint symbol note
Sun, 2012-07-01 - 07:21 Permalink
Won't the lines in the phrase editor equate to a multiple of intervals based on the current scale selected?
The meaning of the lines and of the center line in the phrase editor depends on the symbol type. The details are described in the manual in chapter "Concept" (page 17).
As an example see the attached pics. The three figures at "SymbolTest.PNG" play on the same chord (G/C) but produce different scores (SymbolTest_Score.PNG).
Sun, 2012-07-01 - 11:49 Permalink
Thanks!
It should be better if this information is included in chapter of the phrase editor itself : how is the phrase editor working?
I do want to use a melodic line for counterpoint and this is a light blue symboltype ( symbol for horizontal global scale )
A chord is the green symbol type..so makes it sense that it has other symbol type colors too ?
It seems to me that SFP recognizes a chord in the midi import data and gives it his symboltype : chord ( = green dot color)
Realtime recording of chords must also give a green symboltype ? ( i hope..;) )
Why should SFP give the chord a lightblue color ?
Do i miss something here ;)
Sun, 2012-07-01 - 12:33 Permalink
A chord is the green symbol type..so makes it sense that it has other symbol type colors too ?
Yes, the other symbol types also make sense. For the arpeggio-symbol (purple color) the lines in the phrase editor map to the tones of the current chord (not to the horizonal or vertical scale like the other symbols). You can see this in the pictures I have posted above, where the purple figure plays the notes c-g-b.
The green symbols (chord) and the magenta symbols (bass) map both to the vertical scale. The difference is that for the green symbols the center line at the phrase editor denotes the root note for the vertical scale and for the magenta symbols (bass) the center line denotes the lowest note from the currently used chord inversion.
Realtime recording of chords must also give a green symboltype ? ( i hope..
)
Why should SFP give the chord a lightblue color ?
When Synfire analyses MIDI data it tries to recognize chords, melodies, arpeggios and bass automatically and it then assigns the appropriate symbol types to these different phrase types.
Sun, 2012-07-01 - 12:59 Permalink
Ok, but you use a broken chord .. not a chord where all 3 tones sounds at the same time.
If you use a block (default) chord ( 3 notes played at the same time) than it has only one color : a green color.
There is no block chord what has 3 colors ;)
A broken chord can be seen in your example as a chord and as a melodic line here and as a arpeggio too.
Back to counterpoint with a melodic line( Cantus firmatus) and add Ctp, luckily is my imported 9 bar piano midi line recognised as a lichtblue symboltype..:).So now must it not be difficult to deduce from a given melodic line in a random scale the counterpointline?
Perhaps there is a favour for a particular sscale for counterpoint writing?..or maybe i doesn't matter for SFP..it handles all..that mean that i can deal with it
Sun, 2012-07-01 - 13:29 Permalink
If you use a block (default) chord ( 3 notes played at the same time) than it has only one color : a green color.
A broken chord can be seen in your example as a chord and as a melodic line here and as a arpeggio too.
If you enter 3 notes played at the same time, then Synfire will probably recognize them as a chord and assign the green symbols. If you enter a broken chord, it may be recognized as an arpeggio or as a part of a melody. Then the purple or the blue symbols will be assigned. If Synfire accidently assigns the wrong symbol type, then you can easily correct that in the phrase editor manually.
Different symbol types can be mixed in one phrase. If that's the case, then the center line at the phrase editor has different meanings for the different symbol types.
I think, the lines at the phrase editor should not be mistaken for staff lines. They are just there to give you some orientation.
Sun, 2012-07-01 - 15:45 Permalink
Thanks!
I think, the lines at the phrase editor should not be mistaken for staff lines. They are just there to give you some orientation.
A good point to fix misinterpretations .
The lines in th e phrase editor represent to a step of a scale
If you take the Cmajor scale as example, than the white keys on the midi keyboard are the lines, say for one octave.
If you take a chromatic scale for Cmajor ( all 12 keys of your keyboard) are the lines, so i predict from this that there are 12 lines if you play de C chromatic scale in one octave
It depends how many steps a scale has..how many lines in the phrase editor is present.
Probably there exists one scale of 5 notes : e-g-b-e-g what do you think that the phrase editor lines are the staff lines too.
Ok you record a midi pianomelody line of 9 bar in Cmajor .. each symbol notes represents a particulair scale step
How to to get the right counterpoint interval easy on every scale step ?
It should be handy if SFP gives the right interval information when i select 2 symbol notes vertical at the same time in the parameter inspector... so i can easy see what counterpointinterval i must apply.
It knows all from the two notes: scale, pitch
Note: the pitch in the parameter inspector is "relative" ..when it is absolute? ( when it plays the notes on the scale itself..i think)
So i new counterpointinterval feature in SFP !..and add also the information about the used scale type in the parameter inspector too of th ephrase editor !
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In Cubase i can make 2 tracks and show them together in the keyeditor: one is active and the other track is greyed out and i can toggle between them
As example i had a counterline of a octave doubling
Say if i do want to do this in SFP with a copy container
Gonna be difficult for doing this in SFP, because sfp shows only relative pitches AND cannot also combine two container notedata in one phrase editor
For counterpoint you do need two separate note symbol lines too..it seems that counterpoint doing in SFP is not possible( to examine that ..that was my goal of this thread )
Sun, 2012-07-01 - 15:52 Permalink
Information related to the scale, chord and key can NOT be displayed along with the figure (e.g. whether a symbol is off-chord or dissonant). This is impossible. The progression could be of a different length, be replaced or inherited from elsewhere. Both vectors could be looping at different speeds, so the same symbol will meet a different chord over and over.
Harmony and Figure vector data does not necessarily relate in time. This is the whole point about prototyping: Content and form are independent objects that can be combined freely.
Sun, 2012-07-01 - 16:53 Permalink
Thanks!
But for counterpoint i am only looking to 2 melodic lines in SFP.
I start with a basic melodyline in a container and make a copycontainer or a snapshot? ( but that is not the point here )
SFP must me offer the possibility to construct from a start melody some countermelodies..i am not interested for now in the harmony between the 2 interwooven melodies..(that comes later :))
Suppose i import two melodies from my DAW ( 2 counterpointmelodies ) in SFP, than it seems to me that the distance between the 2 melody lines (note symbols ) stays the same, regardless the underlying harmony?
Sun, 2012-07-01 - 17:21 Permalink
the distance between the 2 melody lines (note symbols ) stays the same
Most of the time, but not always. The progression may transpose individual symbols to match the voice leading constraints. If you want to ensure that two narrow lines do not touch or cross, you can group them in a single segment. That will preserve the distance between both lines best.
Sun, 2012-07-01 - 18:01 Permalink
Most of the time, but not always. The progression may transpose individual symbols to match the voice leading constraints.
I was afraid of that..the voiceleading is controlling the melodic lines
So 2 countermelody lines in a single segment .. but both the 2 lines must have different instruments too.
No parameter options to apply as a seperate track .. i think it is very limited on this way the counterpoint
One can say this is the price you pay than for not to be able of manipulate counterpoint exactly with the seperate form and content concept in SFP
Big brother harmony is always pulling on the notes :)
Sun, 2012-07-01 - 18:20 Permalink
SFP must me offer the possibility to construct from a start melody some countermelodies.
You motivated me to do some "counterpoint exercises" today. Thanks ;)
I started with a melody from Bach (see "Counterpoint_Exercise.mp3"), then I transformed this melody to create a bass. At "Counterpoint_Exercise_Result.mp3" you can hear the result (melody + bass). I will probably post a workflow video.
3444_Counterpoint_Exercise.mp3
3444_Counterpoint_Exercise_Result.mp3
Sun, 2012-07-01 - 19:52 Permalink
That's nice to get some inspiration from someone else.
Here is video what is explaining how to build up the counterlines, hopefully is the same result also possible in SFP
http://www.zerospec.com/testmap/counterpoint.mp4
Yes, i am really curious to see this in a workflow video how you did it ! ; )
I am not a expert in counterpoint and want to learn more about it
Probably have you heard of Johannus Fux with his species of counterpoint ?
Counterpoint start with one note against one note, and becomes more difficult by using 2 notes against the Cantus firmatus( source melody ) with one note and so on ...( if i am correct )
Counterlines with 4 classical instruments is not unusual too.. you start with a source melody
Sun, 2012-07-01 - 20:24 Permalink
Counterpoint in Synfire,
1. Import or record a melody.
2. Copy that melody to a new voice or instrument.
3. Flip the second melody upside down.
BAM Counterpoint
Honestly thats all is takes, maybe you'd then want to tweak it more or export it to notation an make sure it doesnt break any rules, parallel 5th etc. I dont see why it needs to be any more difficult than that.
Sun, 2012-07-01 - 21:00 Permalink
Here is video what is explaining how to build up the counterlines, hopefully is the same result also possible in SFP
Of course that is possible with Synfire. Did you notice, that in that video everything happens within the C maj /a min key? No sharps or flats anywhere. Would give much better results, if the producer would add some harmonic variation there. Maybe somebody should tell him, what kind of software he needs.
Sun, 2012-07-01 - 21:26 Permalink
Would give much better results, if the producer would add some harmonic variation there. Maybe somebody should tell him, what kind of software he needs.
It is only a stringsection example of counterpoint of a whole tutorial
A more harmonical movement is perhaps not immidiately necessarry for this 9 bar string section. so it can stay as it is
Perhaps if you try this too in SFP , despite the harmonic influences by SFP ... you can get a good result?
That means that you can take track for every instrument
Dying Adonis...what about flipping..how does it work?
Sun, 2012-07-01 - 22:34 Permalink
If you use the figure editing tools to flip the copy of the melody, you've essentially created one-to-one contrary motion which is the essence of counterpoint. And Synfire will ensure that it is harmonically coherent. If you want more tension, change the harmony. I don't see how Synfire is restricting you at all.
Mon, 2012-07-02 - 00:18 Permalink
indeed interesting to do this..and all depends how you want to have the behaviour off the second melodyline against the source melody for counterpoint
Do you want to have a :
- countersubject .. it is complete different melodic theme
- Call and Response
- Variations
- Unison/octave doubling
- etc
Flipping seems to be usable for a " countersubject" ?
Mon, 2012-07-02 - 00:19 Permalink
Adonis is right. It is really dead simple if you use the figure transformations (reverse and flip). Now that Andre changed the reverse function to work like a tape, it got even much better. Actually, with Synfire, counterpoint is just copy & paste, stretch and shrink, flip and reverse (and much fun).