Posted
Hi, I have owned Synfire Pro for a few months but have just started investigating articulations. However, I have a question that I suspect many have asked ...
It seems that Synfire generates a Keyswitch only when the articulation changes bur not for subsequent notes using the same articulation.
So if I generate a sequence of notes, each with a different articulation, it happily switches between the articulations (and the Keyswitch can be observed on the VSTi keyboard, changing as every note is played).
However, if there are a series of sequential notes notes using the same articulation, then only the first note is keyswitched - the remainder revert to some previous state. This is because the Keyswitch is not held down for the duration - but only briefly blipped during the first note of an articulation change....
The Guitar VSTi I am using requires the Keyswitch to be enabled for for each note that the alternate voice is played and does not latch the first note. I would guess this is not unusual as it is simply the equivalent of holding down the Keyswitch note on a keyboard whilst using the alternate voice.
So basically, if I change from say a normal guitar to a Muted guitar, the Keyswitch only swithches the first note - the subsequent notes do their own thing - not much use!
I'm sure there is an obvious solution - but it alludes me!
Any ideas?
Sat, 2013-08-17 - 07:55 Permalink
After some thought, I have come up with a solution (although I suspect I am doing something wrong in the first place)
Let's say I want to change the articulation to play a series of sequential muted guitar notes/segments........ (Keyswitch B0 in my case).
Set up the following articulation keyswitches:
Mute A = B0
Mute B = B0
Then set up the segments to alternate with Mute A, Mute B. Now the Keyswitches are generated with every segment.
However, this does raise the issue of keeping track of later muted notes...
By the way, the Synfire Manual states
"An active articulation is not turned off unless the next segment occurs that either requests a different articulation, or has no articulation assigned at all" which is not what I appear to be experiencing...
I really can't believe it can be this complicated to do a simple thing..... please somebody, tell me I'm doing something stupid............!
Sat, 2013-08-17 - 11:30 Permalink
Hello Janamdo
I guess you could - but that defeats the "convenience" of having the Articulation capability....
I still suspect I am doing something wrong... it would be great to receive confirmation from an experienced articulation user that my conclusions are correct.
An interesting point is that when I click on the segments in the phrase pool with articulation assigned to them, they correctly play the Keyswitch and sound. As I have said, the problem is when you press the Play button if a series of segments containing the same Keyswitch is encountered, the keyswitch only seems to be generated for the first note.
However, thank you for the idea - I might have to resort to basics!
Sat, 2013-08-17 - 13:01 Permalink
The current key switch model assumes that a switch needs a short trigger only. This is the case with most sound libraries.
It should be possible to add an option to the articulations definition that will hold the key down for the entire duration of the segment. This is not currently the case, though.
Do you know of more sound libraries that require a permanent key press?
Sat, 2013-08-17 - 13:02 Permalink
Hello joho
Unfortanely i use Synfire Express and it has no articulation feature ... too limited in my opion Synfire Express.
Synfire Express is aimed for modern music, so adding some articulations for modern sounds should be welcome.
I did some experiments with a static track for articulations in Synfire Express , but is unworkable.
I think that your desired functionality for Synfire Pro than must be improved by Cognitone ..or you overlooked something?
I think that there is are different keyswitch parameters..is it assigned to different segment ?
it would be great to receive confirmation from an experienced articulation user that my conclusions are correct.
Sat, 2013-08-17 - 15:17 Permalink
I am using the Ilya Efimov Nylon and Electric TC guitar (a beautiful sounding Telecaster) libraries. Both are Kontakt plug ins and have a whole bunch of articulations which is the reason I got them.
However, after further investigation the following emerges; If I look at GPO and also the Kontact factory presets, the articulation is latched after a single occurance of the articulation, as you say. So it is not necessary to resend the articulation, which will keep on playing until another trigger or default occurs
However, it seems the Efimov guitars will accept a short trigger to change the initial segment articulation but do not latch it. So it will revert to the default if the next segment/note does not contain a new or existing trigger.
This is not to say that there is not some other setting in the Efinov guitars (or Kontakt for that matter) that could change this latching process (I can't see anything in the manuals) but I will contact the Efinov technical support and let you know.
I am not sure how many other Libraries are like this.......however, I suspect there may be a number with similar charateristics.
So ..... phew! Another part of the learning curve .......... thanks for your help.
Sat, 2013-08-17 - 19:52 Permalink
In Cubase 6.5/7 i use, there is a distinction in 2 types of articulated sounds
- lasting more than one note (directions) e.g pizzicato ..where the string instrument is plucked (expression mapping)
- lasting only one note long --> dynamics (attributes)(dynamics mapping)
So some articulations are not to use for lasting than one note (tenuto, accent, staccato ...) and vica versa
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dFp0Lu8Lh04
Follow a textbook example for classical composing with Synfire ..is not the same as in Cubase because the Musical AI ( Synfire magic ) gives a different midi output than is written on the score , but the Synfire Musical AI prevent bad sounding.
I don't no the handling in Synfire Pro with articulation and dynamics, but as you can see in Cubase it seems to be rather easy ( there is only one problem for now in Cubase and that is the score editor..it is now not suited for by hand composing ..it is more for recording, but there comes a new score editor in the future )
Sun, 2013-08-18 - 03:08 Permalink
Didn't SFP transpose 'notes' out of range even on static import? or was that fixed?
Sun, 2013-08-18 - 14:02 Permalink
I don't know the answer to that one Mark.
But the probem with using static notes in the the Phrase Editor is that the display becomes very cramped. Besides, this really defeats the purpose of having an Articulation capability.
Going back to the original problem, I have just downloaded a demo version of MusicLab RealStrat which is pretty indicative of the guitar genre players.
Using the standalone player, the Keyswitch operation seems to be identical to the Ilya Efimov Library and exactly the same problem exists - If Synfire is used as the source and an articulation is repeated, only the first articulation is played correctly and subsequent notes revert to their default sounds (there may be an option somewhere in RealStrat that offers an alternative mode of operation but I could not see it)
This seems to be such a glaring problem that I am surprised it does not seem to have been raised before. However, Synfire needs to be updated to accomodate this type of Library operation - the Libraries are not going to adapt for Synfire! As it stands, the Keyswitching capability is pretty limited and frustrating to use for these types of libraries - especially for newcommers who do not know of these limitations.
There seems to be 2 options;
1. Generate an Articulation Keyswitch during ALL repeating articulations (similar to jabbing the keyswitch key on a keyboard every time an articulation is required)
2. Generate a single Articulation Keyswitch and maintain it during any following identical articulations... (similar to pressing and holding the keyswitch for the duration of an articulation sequence on a keyboard)
I am not sure if these options would interfere if used with conventional "latched" Libraries but would not think so. However, as Supertonic says, there could be an optional button in Synfire to choose between the methods.
In the meantime, as i said earlier, if anyone needs to send repeating articulations and is experiencing problems , try assigning 2 keyswtches (for example Mute 1, Mute 2) to the same keyswitch number e.g. B0. Attach them alternately to segments and Keyswitches will then be generated for each segment.
Sun, 2013-08-18 - 15:33 Permalink
Frustrating for you if can't do your articulation on Synfire..perhaps there comes a quick fix from Cognitone?
Or it is fixed with the new update.. that's more likely.
Improving the articulation system and adding a dynamic mapping feature to Synfire ( like in Cubase )..to get more control on the arrangement.
Sun, 2013-08-18 - 17:41 Permalink
What I do with SFP is when starting in Logic, I strip out extra program changes (some hardware instruments, or virtual instruments make use of different patches to turn Leslie speaker on/off or slighty different patches, for variety.. SFP at the present can only accomodate one patch per instrumemt.. (a limit).
I believe at one point, SFP would always 'transpose' notes it thought was out of range, thus destroying any extremely high orlow notes.. This would happen in 'static' import too.. (Supertonic or Andre) please correct me if this is wrong..
What I currently do is strip off articulations, do my manipulations in SFP, and then when porting back to Logic, adding the articulations.. This works decently for Yamaha Tyros 4, but really wouldn't work for some sample libraries, because the articulations are drastically different. SFP does have a method for dealing with articulations. Sorry to say, I have not got around to understanding it yet.
My process (probably different, and not what Andre intended) is to sometimes starts a song in Logic, and then port over to SFP, to dress up and create new complex parts that are beyond my technical ability. Then port back to Logic
I am a stong believer in wanting to hear my song in SFP the way I intended. That is with articulations (the chugging, and scratchs, thumps, string squeeks) of a guitar. Because my hearing them will determine what I add and how I modify/shape the piece..
(Therefore i'd like to see more minute midi detail in SFP). Andre's original version was it was a 'prototyping' program. You started your piece in SFP, then ported over to a DAW to finish.. I have done some pieces totally in SFP; but it would be nice if it had a a lot more power in the MIDI editing of individual notes). When I'm finishing a piece, I spend a good amount of time using length an velocity to alter the stress notes and positions of lead lines.. Like wise I also spend a good deal of time shortening and lowering velocity of unstressed notes (usually the 'and' in 8ths, 'and a' in certain 16th note positions.. This goes a long way to bringing life to a mechanical sequence to life ..
In fact I'd like to see a Logic 'Transform' section in SFP which gives you extremely minute powerful detail over every individual note in the piece..This was not Andre's original vision, and maybe outside it's current scope. (other than completely rewritting a lot of code)
There is an 'articulation' feature in SFP, (sad to say, I have not gotten around to it)
Good luck (it is a fantastic problem - and Andre has continually be updating, and refining it's processes.
I own two of the Real lab instruments.. They are truly great. Seperating the chordal tracks and the rhythm trigger notes, makes it pretty easy to understand and get the effect you want. I just wish they had a couple of more basic sound sources, although with something like Native Instrument Guitart effects or Amplitude you can get a pretty wide assortment of electric guitar sounds..
Sun, 2013-08-18 - 20:37 Permalink
Thanks for the input Mark
I have dabbled in music for many years (I built my first music synthesiser in 1975) and have watched the industry "mature". After a couple of years break I started again a few months ago, assuming that things would have settled down and become easier now. However, I found the exact opposite as I am trying to build up my system and develop an efficient "workflow" process. - so I can actually start composing....
The first issue was buying a new 64 bit Computer and naively thinking that this is the way to ..... until I came across all the incompatability issues - especially with Rewire. I went through 3 DAWs before finding one that comfotably syncs with Synfire and works with most of my VSTis. It seems that every DAW, VSTi and appication has its own quirks and will not work something else. I saw that you have a separate topic on the forum discussing what equipment folks use. That is a great idea - especially if folks can comment on experiences with different VSTs etc.
The second Issue was finding a true multitimbral Sampler for Synfire that can have a good Midi General bank available for instant use without tying up all your PC resources and memory - I have been through a few Samplers by now!
Back to Articulations, I sampled my own Strat with multi velocity, multi fret position, bending and vibrato 12 years ago - all in Soundfonts! I thought I understood articulations but as soon as I dabble in it now I come to a grinding halt!
Similarly to yourself, I want to do more in Synfire. Best results will be gained doing the full articulations later in a DAW but the guitar has such a special sound and needs nurturing with articulations during the early stages. Nothing too complicated, but at least the basics....
Aah well ..... back to reading some more manuals......
Sun, 2013-08-18 - 21:28 Permalink
Synfire needs to be updated to accomodate this type of Library operation
I put this on the list. Thank you for your input.
Sun, 2013-08-18 - 21:49 Permalink
@joho: The second Issue was finding a true multitimbral Sampler for Synfire that can have a good Midi General bank available for instant use without tying up all your PC resources and memory - I have been through a few Samplers by now!
I don't see what operating system or DAW you've settled on ... so it's hard to make a recommendation.
Luvox Purity is an efficient and decent multitimbral VSTi with GM, but only has a main out and a sub out. This depends if multioutput audio is important to you or not. There are also several very good GM soundfont player VSTi ... some free.
Finally, there is nothing as trusty as an old Roland, Yamaha or Korg GM compatible sound module for basic setup, provided you have a mixing board and can run midi between your computer and your instruments. I like to use hardware modules for blocking out music, without latency issues. I can always sweeten up the voicing later with selected VSTi or synth patch.
As I've said here before, I do not find the Synfire 'device' structure helpful: it is overly complicated and takes away my selection options for voicings. Consequently, I use virtual midi cables to pipe the Synfire midi output directly into my DAW and then do all my voicing from there. I eagerly await the update!
There are many ways to peel and cut an apple, but only one way to chew it!
Fri, 2013-09-27 - 18:49 Permalink
Hello Supertonic
I took the plunge and ugraded to V1.7.1 Beta a couple of days ago. I was very happy to find that you have included the Sustain Button in the Articulation setup menu. This seems to work fine and latch the articulation key appropriately.
However, in the process of investigating this I encountered another issue (not to do with the Sustain);
1. If you enter a series of individual sequential notes in the phrase pool using the drawing tool for example, then you can attach random articulations to individual notes and they retain the articulation information and play correctly.
2. However, if you DRAW a line of notes (so a line connects the individual segments ) using the drawing tool and then attempt to attach an articulation to a random segment, then it seems to do 1 of the following;
a. Converts just the first segment in the phrase to that articulation OR
b. Converts all the segments to that articulation
which basically means you can't use articulation on individual segments.
Any ideas?
Fri, 2013-09-27 - 20:06 Permalink
Currently articulation is per segment, not per symbol.
This is also on the list already.