Posted
Discussing a workflow - Are their more in depth discussions of what and how the various parameters act on a certain type of figure . (green, purple, etc?).
I have started to fool around with interpretations, full, chords, chords with extensions.. I am feeling comfortable at looking into a lot more place now.. However, sometimes I can't determine the effect of a command process on a section of notes.. I think it's time at least I (and more of use) can come to an understanding.. IF it's in the manual, please redirect, I don't remember reading it, or it went so far above my head, I didn't even remember reading it.
In general I'd like to see some articles - The theory behind the design of SFP. Some aspects I can pick up, but I'm sure I'm missing a lot more. it's just so much to take in..
This is one area that I get stuck in.. For me a lot of the results from SFP are 'lucky accidents'. I do get a fair amount of the concepts by now, but always translating that into something musically usefull and nice sounding, some times leaves me hanging.
My primary use of SFP as I see it right now - will be to start a piece in Logic, with Tyros 4 generators, and then port over to SFP to create more interesting and varied parts than Tyros 4 can generate.. At this point, I am using T4 to generateup to 8 - 12 parts, but doing a lot of hand editing, humanizing times, lengths, velodities, thinning out a lot of notes to achieve a more human sound, (Not so blanket sounding as Arranger kbds sometimes make).
I hope that SFP will generat some commands that will help to do this. I do some of it in Logic, by splitting 3 - 6 note chords into individual tracrs, (select remove highest line, etc. I can then peform some rand functions on these notes.. randomizing velocityes random up/down by 70 velocities, I then take a certain range of velocites and mute of erase them.. This is a fairly convoluted proceedure.. I have a bunch of Logic Transform presets to help speed this up..
If SFP could do some similar things in future it would be great. So for me, I may want to use SFP with a pre-conditioned MIDI file, and work from there.. I would like ti to takes pre-existing phrases, and make variations, etc. But I want to keep it within the boundaries of my preconcieved notion of song..
For me now, without enough background knowledge of SFP, I often may come up with interest results, but not in the direction I wanted the music to go...
And now don't laugh, I've been playing around with Band-In-a-Box for a LOT of years now.. It can really come up with some interesting melodyes, Solo's are a bit too cliched, but I bounce them into SFP and rework them into something more manageable.
If SFP had a melody generator, I know that would be a major plus, because you've already set up a lot of different conditions to control.
Band in a box will give you the same melody if you stick to the same style, although it sometmes changes,, and they gave up on nameing styles, and have hundreds of styles with just a number.. One must keep written track, if he lucks onto something good.. I often create 2 - 3 different melodies in BIAB and the import into Logic or SFP and rehash them there, sometimes with really great result..
So this workflow for me, requires some very long linear parts, The newer parts I create are shorter, and I make use of using parameters with different lengths, so the musical lines have variation in them.
Other times I import the almost finished project back into SFP statically and play around with chord progressions in different parts of song. This feature is just mind blowing. One need not go into each track at a time to fix a few chords.. A huge timesave.. sometimes a whole song saver, other times a new song creator. Just go back and change a few parameters, and no one will ever know your songs has just been recycled..
Tue, 2012-11-06 - 04:19 Permalink
I have started to fool around with interpretations, full, chords, chords with extensions.. I am feeling comfortable at looking into a lot more place now.. However, sometimes I can't determine the effect of a command process on a section of notes.. I think it's time at least I (and more of use) can come to an understanding.. IF it's in the manual, please redirect, I don't remember reading it, or it went so far above my head, I didn't even remember reading it.
It would be nice if whenever there is a manual section that answers a posted question, someone would cite that manual page so those interested in the issue would no where to go to learn more.
I also like the idea of a 'melody' generator, although to a certain extent one already exists if you import a midi file with melody for a monophonic instrument, make sure your interpretation is set for a solo or melody and start tweaking the phrase.
But a pure melody generator based upon harmony and perhaps a 'melody interpretation' parameter similar to but more narrowly focused than the 'Interpretation' parameter would be a very nice feature.
Qualities could include length of phrase, rhythm of notes, type of instrument such as violin, flute, sax, etc., of instrumetns typically playing 'lead' solos in various music.
Prado
Tue, 2012-11-06 - 10:05 Permalink
A melody generator that deserves this name would have 10x more parameters than Synfire has features. Despite this overkill, results would still sound "all the same" after a while of getting used to, because a listener would quickly recognize the scheme behind it.
Melody is as feature rich as is DNA. In theory there are probably more melodies possible than particles exist in the Universe. This huge combinatorial space can not be covered by a few "settings". That's why BIAB uses styles.
Melody is not math. It is the result of a human player making decisions on how to move a voice in pitch and time. These decisions are tied to cultural context. There is no theory or model that could cover this. Generators that are supposed to create something that is at least remotely "human" can only imitate a predefined style, that is, offer variations on patterns that have been observed with human performances. And moreover, melody is a language: Theme, variation, call and response, repetition, counterpoint, etc.
The good thing is: I know how to do it. Bad thing is: There is a lot of research and development left to make it useful.
Tue, 2012-11-06 - 16:52 Permalink
I perfectly understand your position, and agree with you.. I never look for or expect a perfect melody from BIAB, but a lot of times I'll will get 2 - 4 measures of 'brilliance'.. And true, you can often hear the replication of the same melody in BIAB once you use it enough.
What I often do with BIAB is create a melody, and then sometimes re-generate a few bars. Or else I just generate 4 - 8 melodies using their styles.
I then cut/paste a melody together from those sections.. Or use one BIAB melody, learn that, and create my own..
I would LOVE to have a melody generator, and realize it would not live up to your standards. But you could label, it as a beta feature, and leave invisible, unless beta functions are turned on..
To be truthful, I have found that as klugy, overbloated, and ugly as Band In A Box is.. I find it a useful tool. A lot of times it serves as an inspiraton jumping off ground.. the 'generate chords, and intros' is an extremely usefull tool also.
Tie that in with SFP harmonic rechording, and you've got a solid gold audio tool.
I have often tried drawing in melodies in SFP, but most of the time not really satisfied with the results to use as a melody. (maybe, I'm missing an important point here). On the otherhand I love playing live into SFP. then 'cleaning it up', with interpretation, quantize, step, pause etc.
What I like with BIAB, is it's quickly created, I just as quickly decide what i like or don't like and create a couple more parts as subsitutions. I don't care if the SFP melody generator was fast and dirty. In the mean time it, would benefit the users who could be giving you more feedback.
But I know you already have your plate filled with what to do.. Still most people would kill for a halfway sounding decent melody generator..
Been reading several books on how the brain works lately. I'm, like so many others, guilty of only perceiving what I think there is out there to see and hear. More speculation, background info from you and Supertonic.. (Or some of the other advanced users) would help us to shake up our musical believe neural net, and be able to accept a different approach with an open mind.