Posted
It is all about textures as buildingblocks for a arrangement
Enclosed a example to get a mysterious mood--> this must be transferred to Synfire..how to do this easy and quick if there is no midi file from it?
And i need chromatic notes too
Tue, 2013-12-03 - 12:30 Permalink
: Hi Juergen
But that is laborious..dealing with a notation editor too..note by note ..brr..and how it will be interpretated by Synfire. (good i hope)
----------------------------------------------------------------
:idea: i do own also Pizzicato Professional---> good to use a notationeditor then
---------------------------------------------------------------
Somehow it is unavoidable..one can make a library of textures
There is no middle road in Synfire by roughly sketching this in from a scoreexample ..was this the case, than the "chicken with golden eggs were born" (1 proverb )
You need get a direction ( what mood/effect )for making texture by using scoreexamples ( as learningtool)
Tue, 2013-12-03 - 14:14 Permalink
Not exactly as the original is no problem if it preserves its character of the example.
On the one hand we do have a approach to compose by experiment ( see tutorial) and on the other hand we can try to learn from written score examples ( a realistic approach to come further in classical composing)
Problem is how to get easy the score examples in Synfire as texture : i can do this by software recognition(tricky) or by hand (laborious)..this is a bottleneck..to bring all notes with nuances in a score editor.
Tue, 2013-12-03 - 14:25 Permalink
Yes, the interpretation of chromatic stuff like this could be a challenge for Synfire.
Chromatic stuff is the result of chords and scales moving chromatically (sometimes very fast) and the figure hitting those scale steps at the right time.
With a simple "song book" style progression, this can not be forced by editing the figure.
Tue, 2013-12-03 - 14:29 Permalink
Problem is how to get easy the score examples in Synfire as texture
Listen to the original music and build something similar with Synfire. You will never get a 100% match. In reality, your final result will be far off from where you started. And that's a good thing, because it became your own original music, rather than a cheap copy.
Tue, 2013-12-03 - 14:55 Permalink
In this case i do have a written score and a audio file as example
Listen to the original music and build something similar with Synfire.
The idea to paint the notes in roughly in the phraseeditor like the example score is the only thing i can do and attractive..if hoping that the desired feel/effect will be present.
I do have another written scorexample named: melancholy and the violins 1 and 2 needed to be divised in one track (how to do this)..only 8 bars long..enough for a variation.
Let me try this to do on your suggested way.
Tue, 2013-12-03 - 15:07 Permalink
So the music example : mysterious mood is not possible to get ?
I thought i could bring in chromatic notes in the phraseeditor ..although then not (partly?) processed by Synfire
With a simple "song book" style progression, this can not be forced by editing the figure.
Tue, 2013-12-03 - 16:36 Permalink
So the music example : mysterious mood is not possible to get ?
I don't think that it is impossible but Synfire will probably need a little help at the interpretation of this score.
You have the description of this "Mysterious mood" score, look at what he writes: "After the violins establish our first harmony in bar 1, we simply lower that entire chord by a whole step to create our next harmony".
I assume that Synfire will not understand this idea behind these two chords. When Synfire interprets imported scores it looks for progressions within a key or for modulations between keys. But in this case this is not a normal progression and it's also not a modulation. It's just a chord jump. The same is happening between bar 4 and 5.
To avoid that Synfire is confronted with these chord jumps at the interpretation, I would import this score in three parts: The first part to import would be bar 1 and 2, then bar 3 and 4 and finally bar 5 and 6. Then I would put these parts together in the arrangement window.
Tue, 2013-12-03 - 19:24 Permalink
Hi Juergen, thanks for the idea!
A lot of work for this "mysterious mood" score ..but a i made a figure from it, what is rather poor ( see audioxample )
So it must ends up in a score editor to make the midi for the mysterious mood score to get at least decent quality.
Tue, 2013-12-03 - 19:32 Permalink
Yes, trying to "paint" this score directly into the phrase editor is probably not that easy. To do this you would first need to define the underlaying scales at the harmony parameter. These scales are different at bar 1-2 and 3-4. The scale at bar 5-6 is obviously the same as at bar 1-2. After defining these scales you could start "painting" the phrases.
Or you could consider the whole score as been written in C major and paint the phrases with the appropriate accidentals. But then re-using this phrases in different harmonic contexts would probably not give good results.
So I would advise against trying to enter something like that directly into the phrase editor. The only reasonable way I see is to enter it into a notation editor and importing it as MIDI. But even then you have to think how to do it exactly, to get reasonable results.
Tue, 2013-12-03 - 23:56 Permalink
Now I have listened to your audioexample. So I thought it would be. To me it sounds not too mysterical. Synfire obviously has problems at the chord/scale jumps at bar 3 and bar 5. The result sounds more like a simple Tonic-Dominant-Tonic-connection. One simply has to know where the limits of the programs are.
Wed, 2013-12-04 - 00:11 Permalink
Juergen, i was not able to bring in the symbols as they were noted in the score ( the chromatic notes were ignored )
I thought there was a switch to allow chromatic notes in the phrase editor.. i could not find it anymore.
There is a big difference with the original audio arrangement and this one by me!
Input of chromatic notes(symbols) versus diatonic notes is not prominent present in the phrase editor where it should be in the interface ? ... i am lost with the phrase editor ..what can i do with it ?
Perhaps you can try to get this score into Synfire ?
Problem with the tutorial of how to compose classical made by Cognitone that there is no direction in what you want to compose ( mood ), it is aimless.
Wed, 2013-12-04 - 00:21 Permalink
Well, I would probably not get better results than you easily. Only with much fiddling.
As I said, I would not recommend to enter it directly with chromatic symbols. But you can try it. You get accidentals when you select a symbol and enter 1 or -1 at the "Chromatic" input field of the parameter inspector (see enclosed Gif).
Wed, 2013-12-04 - 03:37 Permalink
Did you already try importing as all static symbols (there's a switch for that in the import dialogue now) and doing a reharmonization and manual "take hinting" before the final figure recognition?
For proper figure recognition it's essential that there's a matching progression. Better manually rework it before recognizing the figures. Synfire loves to choose less than optimal chords in certain situations when auto-reharmonizing. As this is not a show-stopper I did not yet bother Andre with it.
Wed, 2013-12-04 - 09:50 Permalink
I thought there was also a switch for the phrase editor that allows you to input chromatic symbols with the drawingtool ..in that case i don't know what scale is used for the chords in the "mysterious mood" example.
I construct the chords , etc in the phrase editor and Synfire handles the scales ? ( the phrase editor starts always with a scale loaded)..so i must give up a scale. ( and i don't know for the chords).
Perhaps a idea to give the phrase editor a scale with 6 accidentals ?
Wed, 2013-12-04 - 12:06 Permalink
Hi energy, yes importing implies that i do have a midifile for the "mysterious mood" example, but that is not the case now.
I could make one in a scoreeditor, but that is laborious, but gives the best musical result
Meanwhile i am trying to do more with direct constructing the "mysterious mood "in a phrase editor and using a scale with 7 # (Cis =7 #) , but there are also some accidental b in the"mysterious mood"example --> these ones i must convert to #
------------------------------------------------------
Cis major 7 # Gis ( As)--> choose in palette for harmony.how to get this?
It seems that the palette goes to B major with 5 #
Too complicated .. i go to Cmaj and use the + and _ for chromatic chords as juergen shows in the .gif
I must use augmentented or dimished chord in the progression and than listening for a second "mysterious mood" arrangement made only in the phrase editor
I made a second example :http://soundcloud.com/janamdo/violins-mysteriousmood in Synfire
Also no direct control/oversight .. i think a scorenotation editor is the only solution to get a midi as the composer has intented in this score mysteriuos mood
Wed, 2013-12-04 - 13:17 Permalink
I made a second example
Yes, sounds more mysterious now. But probably still not exacly like the original. Btw: Have you tried to bypass interpretation, or at least set it to "Weak"? If Interpretation is bypassed or weak, Synfire probably will follow the chord jumps more directly.
Wed, 2013-12-04 - 14:22 Permalink
It's better .. but Synfire is not suited for following classical score examples as i see when dealing with a another classical example and work this out in the phrase editor
If it has a scoreeditor too with a import midi from there that should convenient
i will concentrate now on making of the classical examples into midi files for library use ( hopefully do they get the right quality with Halion Symphonic Vst ? .. if not than another classical library to use)
Wed, 2013-12-04 - 15:11 Permalink
i will concentrate now on making of the classical examples into midi files
If you have many scores that you want to convert into MIDI files then I would recommend to use a Score-to-MIDI converter software, such as SmartScore. Or capella-scan, that I use:
http://www.capella.de/us/index.cfm/products/capella-scan/info-capella-scan/
hopefully do they get the right quality with Halion Symphonic Vst ?
The Halion Orchestra is not bad. Despite it's small size (only one DVD) it has a pretty lively sound. And most importantly, it sounds timeless. Especially in comparison to the EWQL orchestra, which sounds quite outdated meanwhile. But if you are interested: Right now you can get the silver edition of the EWQL orchestra for 75 Euro:
http://www.soundsonline-europe.com/Symphonic-Orchestra
Wed, 2013-12-04 - 21:25 Permalink
I scanned the score and extracted the midi from the "mysterious mood "
http://soundcloud.com/janamdo/from-mysterious-mood-score-mid
Synfire makes a block chord from it , while it is a big open chord
I must say it is a poor translation with the default import, perhaps it can be improved ?
Handmade from the score in the phrase editor gives best result, because the chord is open
Wed, 2013-12-04 - 22:56 Permalink
Oh no, what do you mean? I've just ordered this but it hasn't arrived yet. I've read nothing but outstanding reviews for this software until this, now I'm worried!
Oh sorry! I didn't want to worry you. Of course, the EWQL Orchestra is not bad. But it is now several years on the market (since 2005). It was state of the art in its time but the progress continues. There are now a series of new and simply better libraries. VSL, LASS, 8DIO, Cinesamples, Orchestral Tools, Symphobia, also from EWQL the Hollywood series.
The problem that I have with the EWQL Orchestra is that it has a very unique sound that is easily recognizable. If you work for a certain time with this library, you'll probably easily recognize it in pieces of others. And to my ears it sounds just somewhat dusty. But that's of course just my 2ct.
But as I have understood you, you do not intend to compose a classical symphony or produce professional film score with it anyway, right? If you just need some decent background strings or brass for a pop production it is still absolutely ok, of course.
Thu, 2013-12-05 - 16:01 Permalink
However, I've ordered the EWQL Hollywood (gold) series. What's the difference between that and the EWQL Orchestra?
The Hollywood series can be seen as the successor of the standard EWQL Orchestra that I was talking about. It consists of three separate libraries: Hollywood Strings, Hollywood Brass and Hollywood Woodwinds. I have only Hollywood Strings (gold).
What is the difference to the strings of the standard EWQL orchestra? Well, better sound of course. They have probably driven more effort in the recording and editing of the samples. There are also more articulations and you have more flexibilitiy. For instance, there are patches that are recorded with more violin players than at the standard orchestra, what gives the typical dense sound that is used at movie scores. Also the legato patches sound more convincing. You can also choose that a particular note should be played on a specific string of the violins. So you can, for example, have a high note playing on the G string of the violin, what gives a different sound as if it would be played normally. All that can ultimately lead to a much more realistic result.