Posted
Is it possible to play a secondary voice in unison or harmony to the main melody in Synfire?
This can off course be done by duplicating the melody and then adjusting the copy. However, if the melody is then changed (which it normally will be), this process needs to be repeated. If you have several harmony instruments, this is a pain.
What is needed is a simple link between the Reference melody and the the harmony instruments. Or am I missing something?
Sun, 2014-03-23 - 23:15 Permalink
Thanks Petearch
I started studying orchestration (as a hobbyist) lately and have been impressed by the powerful effect of adding harmonies and counterpoint to melodies etc. You can instantly change a rather bland melody into a very powerful and professional sound......
In pursuing this I came across a low cost program called Ludwig 3 ( http://www.write-music.com/)
This is an amazing little program that will take a simple one line notation or midi melody and instantly orchestrate it including harmonies, coupled sounds, counterpoint etc. This allows you to make changes to your melody and immediately hear what a "final" version of the orchestration could sound like. Try downloading the demo - it is very addictive and inspirational.
My point about all that is that we should be able to do the same thing in Synfire - but better....
What I envisage is a container working in parallel with the main melody that includes a mini "orchestra" of players coupled to the melody and instantly reacting to changes made in the melody. This could easily be done if the Instruments take their input from the "master" melody.....
As a separate issue - I member you mentioning in the forum some time ago that you live near Gloucester UK . I live in Gloucester (Quedgeley) if you fancy a beer and Synfire chat sometime ....
Joe
Mon, 2014-03-24 - 00:31 Permalink
OMG, that's quite amazing to have two Synfire users so close to each other! I live in Brockworth and if anyone else is reading, that's less than 10 miles from centre to centre! The last time I said I would meet up for a beer with another Synfire user, half way was somewhere near Bermuda so this sounds a lot better :)
I'm sure Mrs petearch would be willing to drop me off somewhere near you one weekend evening for a beer. Drop me a line at peter.archer4@btinternet.com and I'm sure we can sort something out!
Mon, 2014-03-24 - 10:35 Permalink
Hi Joe,
I think you're talking about generators?
There's a very interesting thread about it here https://users.cognitone.com/content/generators if you haven't already seen it.
I looked at Ludwig some time ago but dismissed it for some reason. I'll take another look.
Mon, 2014-03-24 - 21:50 Permalink
Hello Pete
Yes - I have seen the thread. I have used programs like Jammer 6 for many years and have been able to compose some reasonable tunes - but I am at a point now where I want to have a lot more control over the melodies and chord progressions I compose.
Like yourself, I have been learning Synfire for about a year and have been able to to compose some very elegent motifs. However, I struggle with the next stage - putting them into a cohesive song with some direction and meaning.
My inspiration is to compose songs like Shabda from Mike Oldfield's album Music of the Spheres ...
I am a reasonable ( if lapsed!) guitarist so have an understanding of chords etc. But when it comes to writing (instead of borrowing) chord progressions, I tend to meander without any real direction. A bit of music theory study has shown me the importance of certain chords and their relationships to keys etc and their position within the song. This suddenly gives direction.
Similarly, as I have started studying melody composing, I realise the importance that certain notes at certain points in a bar have on the mood of the music. It can be hard to randomly generate these notes and I am slowly seeing the benifits of using music notation for establishing a sound melody with some direction. Hence my current interest in a much more structured and analytical approach to composing a song - and the coupling of instruments to the main melody.
Right at the moment, I am trying to decide what combination of Synfire and other (possibly notation) program I use to compose the core melody before using Synfire to embelish it and tie the whole song together.
With regards, to Ludwig 3, like any other program it has limitations but is particularly useful for writing (or importing) a melody and quickly seeing how it would sound with a (reasonably) professional orchestral or other genre background. It can also develope a song, eg bring in additional instruments automatically at the climax of a song and for me has been a particularly useful educational tool to compliment my use of Synfire. By the way, it can auto generate some reasonably good melodies to use as the basis of your own melody.
However, Synfire is still the core of my composing (especially now that I finally have GPO4 working!)
Cheers - looking forward to a chat...
Joe
Mon, 2014-03-24 - 23:44 Permalink
Hi Joe
Funnily enough Mike Oldfield is probably my all-time favourite artist. I have a few I really like, e.g. Genesis, Supertramp, Yes, etc., but I always come back to Mike. In my opinion he is a true musical genius. What instrument can he not play? My favourites from him are the beginning of Tubular Bells Side 2, and the whole of Ommadawn Side 1. But from Music Of The Spheres, I really love Aurora:
I'm almost in the same position as you I think. I keep starting loads of pieces and then get stuck knowing where to take it next so I tend to start something else instead. I can also play guitar well enough to understand chords, etc. and I've come up with (I think) a reasonable way to generate chord progressions in Synfire from my own melody ideas that I input from my MIDI keyboard.
I downloaded the demo of Ludwig today. I'm not sure why I dismissed it before, but I thought it couldn't import MIDI. Well it can so maybe that's a new feature or I just misunderstood last time. I had to enter a melody manually (as MIDI import is disabled in the demo, and I only have a 'dumb' MIDI keyboard) but I was very impressed with the results it generated.
So I ordered the full version. I could have downloaded an activation code for about 49 euros, but Amazon were selling a CD copy for about 23 GBP so I went for that one obviously! I'll have to wait a few days for that to be delivered though.
My idea now is to export the Ludwig composition and import it into Synfire to let it do its magic. Hopefully this will get me moving again and may make me stick to the piece I'm currently working on!
Tue, 2014-03-25 - 11:01 Permalink
I keep starting loads of pieces and then get stuck knowing where to take it next so I tend to start something else instead.
You're on the right path. That's the way most every serious artist goes. Producing a lot of material is essential before you've got enough of it to select from and build on. It's difficult to produce sufficient variety in one go. You need that variety in order to achieve contrast and tension. Collect whatever your daily experimentation comes up with and review it later from a distance.
The greatest thing with Synfire is you can keep all those "miniatures" and combine them for new work. Your best composition will be one that builds on two or three contrasting approaches.
Tue, 2014-03-25 - 19:03 Permalink
Yes Andre, that is my master plan! I thought that at some point I could try to combine some of these different arrangements into one. The beauty of Synfire is I can take a harmony from one arrangement and drop it in a container in another (transposed, re-estimated, whatever). And take phrases or even whole sections and drop them in too, trying different groupings, anchors, symbol types, interpretation, etc.
Where I'm a bit stuck is how best to do this. I can open several arrangements at once, but if they use different global racks, they may not sound right with the re-assigned sounds. So I started putting the arrangements into libraries but now my libraries are becoming a bit of a mess.
That's because not only do I have these libraries, but also ones from imported MIDI files (Rock, Pop, Classical, etc.) and I need to be careful they don't get too big because of the memory problems on Windows. And there's the problem of not being able to have libraries in a folder structure I think.
Also, I like the embedded library a lot, because you can preview the phrases using the current instrument. But I also like the normal library view, because it lets you see the actual phrase. It's a pity the two options can't be combined somehow. For example, would it be possible to include the 'link to selected instrument' button (that's already in the embedded library) on the normal library view?
All that aside, thank you so much for providing such a wonderful piece of software! I'm not sure what I would be doing with my spare time without it!
Wed, 2014-03-26 - 13:27 Permalink
Hello joho
To try to get more grip on your songsections, you could try to work with different chordcontainers and also overlapping containers to get a transition you like.
Also use variations of containers to build up the song.
Ludwig 3 is interesting as a start for a midi, but there are compositions who are not so easy for Ludwig3 to compose
a example : https://soundcloud.com/#janamdo/century
This one i made out of a yamaha style and use chordcontainers and overlapping
http://soundcloud.com/janamdo/guitardream
Another one http://soundcloud.com/janamdo/tenesse and this one uses a four part harmony background for the piano, carefully arranged to get the 4 part harmony, but Synfire does not allowed yet to compose on this way.
When it it possible to compose by note and by midi snippets in Synfire then it wil be attractive too for all composer who have a formal education in music.
Further Synfire lacks indeed compositional features and if it had something like Ludwig 3 it is more attractive, but how to get this musical knowledge for Synfire built in for the developer ?
Perhaps a idea to experiment with Ludwig 3 and bring this to Synfire ?.."dramastages" to achieve emotional development in a song.
4 part writing SABT chords -closed or open is not possible in Synfire because you don't know how to get the right notes on the tracks, because the phrase editor is not reflecting the real note positions.
Importing open voicing for SABT chords is not possible.
So you need a composer to build up some 4 parts harmony, but if it using open voicing it will be reduced to closed voicings when you import a midi file.
You arrange your open 4 part voicings in a midi file, but it is useless..a musical limitation
If there in the future a improvement in the compositional features of Synfire ..it could be for the four part harmony
Wed, 2014-03-26 - 16:04 Permalink
Four part writing is nice, but very limited. It renders sustained chords only without any embellishements, rhythm or variety in texture. That's great for a few bars Ohhhs and Ahhhs, but that's it. I think of implementing this only because it is requested every now and then.
The way Synfire handles counterpoint is more expressive, even though it can't obey the strict "rules" of four part writing: Each instrument receives its own Figure with rhythm, melodic movement and embellishments. All instruments together more or less fill out the harmony. Since instruments have different playing ranges and Figure can be easily transposed, an open voicing comes as a natural result.
While traditional four part writing focusses on chords, Synfire focusses on melody and rhythm, where harmony just "happens" as a byproduct. I'd not say one is superior to the other. Synfire offers more freedom, though.
Wed, 2014-03-26 - 17:05 Permalink
OK more freedom, but how must be 4 part harmony composed in Synfire if there is no real reflection of the notes in the phrase editor?
It starts with a chordprogression then..and i fill in the notes for a 4 part harmony say from a music example.
How to bring in the symbols in the phrase editor..in HALion5 i can see what notes are pressed in the keyboard, but those notes will not be probably the same as from the music example.
Those harmony notes will be in the right harmonical position calculated by the AI algorhytm ? .. ( it sounds always good that is the trademark of Synfire )
Thu, 2014-03-27 - 12:49 Permalink
Hi Pete,
I know from a other thread that André confirms that open voicings from SATB chords when imported will be reduced to closed voicings, so "splitting/separate Voices" parameter" will probably not have something to do with open voicings i think.
Is this parameter documented ? ..then we can prevent that this must be figured out by trial and error, because it is a bad learning strategy.
Have a nice day
Thu, 2014-03-27 - 20:48 Permalink
Again experimenting with Halion Sonic 2/5 and flexphrased midi's for Synfire.
Drop this enclosed zip VSt Preset on HAlion Sonic 2 standalone ( The Halion VST in Synfire doesn't show up this vst preset .. later concern) yet mediabay and use multi knob in the mediabay as sound and user knob for selecting this sound again back in the mediabay for assigning it to a slot (channel) in HAlion.
You must have Symphonic Vst /standalone for HAlion to open this violincelli action preset.
Under the the triggerpads are 8 flexphrased variations of the violincelle spiccatoalt preset sound
Listen to triggerpad 8 for example ... export a midi from the flexphrased sound and try play this back again in Synfire ! ( flexphraser must be set of)
The flexphrased midi's are a good starting point for composing and sounds awesome..in HALion, but must be transferred to Synfire as library
Let me concentrate on musical interesting flexphrased midi's from HALion and bring this to life in Synfire for composing.
LET US START A HALION USER GROUP FOR SYNFIRE !! :thumbsup:
I forget one thing that Synfire makes a own interpretation of the midi ..and in the case of HALion it can not match the original flexphrased midi quality.. only if it is a static midi, but that is useless in Synfire.
So there is a limited use of the flexphrased midi from Halion in Synfire it can loose its character.
Thu, 2014-03-27 - 23:58 Permalink
Ok, I haven't had much time tonight but I've done a quick test with a 4 part I created myself. I got it to work perfectly by setting the pattern recognition as follows:
Algorithm -> Linear
Voices -> 4
Splitting -> NOT ticked
Nothing else ticked (in the Figure Recognition bit) except Horizontal and Transpose
Everything else left as defaults.
For some reason, ticking the 'Splitting' messes it up a bit, I'm not sure why.
I had to re-harmonize by using Transition -> Polyphony and Style -> Complex. I had to do this twice to get the correct results for some reason. I'm not sure why harmonizing with the same settings twice gives different results.
The small MIDI file is attached if you want to try it. The range is Bb1 to G4 so make sure you use an instrument with a suitable range.
Sun, 2014-03-30 - 05:30 Permalink
Thanks Joho for the Ludwig 3 tip. its a fun prog to genre bend with and import into SFP. Does anyone have experience with uisoftware Xx. its a algorithmic composition soft that is osx only. I was able to install mavericks using vmware workstation. it works great.
Tue, 2014-04-01 - 20:15 Permalink
Hello duderanch
The uisoftware looks interesting but I do not have any experience with it.
However, out of interest, have you come across the Indiginus Solid State symphony?
http://indiginus.com/solidstatehome.html
It is basically a low cost Orchestral VST made up from samples from an old style synthesiser - but with gorgeous sounds (it gets great reviews). The magic is that as you ramp up the velocity it automatically switches in the woodwinds, brass and percussion. I put it on a single channel in Synfire and drew in some random polyphonic lines with an overall increasing and decreasing velocity curve. The sound was amazing!
The point is, if you want to knock up a very quick orchestral prototype song, you could do it with just a few channels, each set to a differeant instance of the VST.....
Great fun and very usable .....
Thu, 2014-04-03 - 11:13 Permalink
However, out of interest, have you come across the Indiginus Solid State symphony?
Thanks for the link Joe, I'm having great fun with this! Inexpensive and sounds great!
Thu, 2014-04-03 - 21:47 Permalink
You are welcome Pete...
If you have been following my saga about not being able to load GPO4 with the Synfire internal engine .... well I gave up! Stiil needing a reasonable quality, reasonably priced Full Orchestral VST I looked at this link;
http://www.ikmultimedia.com/products/cat-view.php?C=computer-software
and got the Total workstations XL bundle at 79 EURO - mostly to get the full Miroslav Philharmonic Orchestra at a giveaway price + a lot of other goodies. I know it is old and 32 bit and Sampletank 3 (64 bit) is supposed be be coming out soon - but it does work via JBridge on my 64 bit system and it has great sounds and is eminently usable.
Plus off course - I can finally save and retrieve song setups containing Orchestral presets .. Hoorah!
An interesting caveat though.... if you save a VST using the "Sounds" tab (not Global) then some VSTs require you to save the Preset from within the VST before saving the song (Miroslav does) or it loses the data after reloading; But others (e.g. Kontakt) don't.....
But that is another story... Anyway, I shall now be busy trying to download the remaning goodies .... wonder what surprises they will bring!
Thu, 2014-04-03 - 22:43 Permalink
Well Joe, a few months ago I shelled out big-time for EWQL CCC2 including the Hollywood Gold series. What I didn't realise though, is that the samples use so much memory. I have 12GB RAM (which I thought was a lot when I bought my PC 3 years ago) but now they're shipping machines with 32 or 64 gigs of RAM! I can't use more than a handful of EWQL instruments without it grinding my machine to a halt. I'd have to spend between 1 and 2 K more to upgrade which is out of the question at the moment. And, even though I love some of the pianos in the Pianos Gold (one of them sounds much like Supertramp), they all take so long to load.
For now, I've set up a global rack with all the VSL presets than are built in to Kontakt 5. I find them good enough for my purposes while I'm still learning Synfire, and they load really quickly. I also have Halion Symphonic Orchestra but haven't really looked into it much, I must try that file Jan attached earlier in this thread when I get some time!
But I listened to Music Of The Spheres again last night, and it just makes me want to give up sometimes, because I know I can never achieve anything anywhere near that, and he doesn't even have Synfire, it's all in his head, damn him :)
Sat, 2014-04-05 - 10:20 Permalink
Hello Pete..
When the ZX81 came out many years ago with its 1k of memory, I remember spending many happy hours trying to program a chess program on it. When the memory ran out and I could afford it, I would buy a couple of 2114 chips and solder them piggyback to give me another 1k of memory. Another period of bliss before running out of memory again..
Here we are 30 years later and nothing has changed - except the order of magnitude...
I recently upgraded to 16GB and am blissfully content for a few months more.....
Sun, 2014-04-06 - 01:15 Permalink
And I had the hi-tech ZX Spectrum version with its rubbery keys (with 16k of memory I think). I wrote a darts game on it, and also a mortgage calculator that impressed the manager of the West Bromwich Building Society at the time!
I also remember in about 1999/2000 that my friend was envious of my new PC with 12GB of hard-disk space (and my 32 inch windscreen TV that was so big, it took four blokes to get it up the stairs of the flat I was living in at the time)!
In a few years, I suppose we'll be laughing at only 64GB of RAM :)