Secret Composer

indeed seems interesting  but,
is it only "Lessons" kind a interactive book ?
also i didn't get it why there is no downloadable  demo version .
ill check again when i have time.

Yes i purchased secret composer one and half year ago...very much to learn more about composing
Worth the money you spend on it.

Also i bought scoring stages 1 and 2 from Alexander university ..rather cheap and much to learn
Synfire is not suited for this style of composing..note by note in a score editor, because it has no score editor and the phrase editor reflects not the real note positions.

Thanks petearch.

Peter, do you think that voiceleading bypassing alone is enough to think that the phrase editor now is acting as a regular scoreditor ?
Voiceleading is for chords tones working smoothly in a progression, but there  are more symbollines working undepently of chords.

It seems to me that there is more under the hood of Synfire that is working in the phraseeditor, but  it is a quess of mine.
Suppose that the phrase editor can acts as a regular score editor, then all those musicians working with musictheory can use this too.

How it excatly works musically in the phrase editor i don't know ..but you can combine chords and symbollines in the arrangementview and musically there are no dissonances tones?
So i think all symbols will be processed to make it musically sounding.
But the right answer can be only given by the creator of Synfire.   

For counterpoint you do need a precise interval .. take the first specie ( the most easy one), perhaps bypassing the voiceleading for two parts and after constructing putting back VL back might work?

Perhaps one new button to toggle the VL on /off for melody and counterpoint backgroundlines constuction..

Better is in the phrase editor a on/off for the accidentals  and a on/off for the voiceleading

 http://www.arpegemusic.com/li102.htm

Synfire is not suited for this style of composing..note by note in a score editor, because it has no score editor and the phrase editor reflects not the real note positions.

Synfire is indeed not a notation program. 

I believe the actual challenge with composing is about developing an idea of the general textures and structures of a piece, rather than setting the final notes (which can be very different and still convey almost the same meaning). Expressing this idea in the form of figures and parameters is what Synfire excels at and what makes it "generate" the notes based on this very quickly.

So, if good lessons can teach us what concepts are behind good music, there is probably not much need to rebuild their examples note by note anymore, if one can instead create similar, but original music almost immediately after getting the idea.

But importantly, I will only bypass for melodies, not for any accompanyment.

That's what I also do quite frequently. But more often that not, I just take the melodies as they come (as I'm lazy) and manually fix the details later after the composition settled a bit.

Hi,on the note of secret composer. It's a great tool for anyone striving to get their composition or arranging skills up to par in a snapshot. The sytem used favors a basic  knowledge of music theory!! After reading the instructions,one would quickly realise how things work structurally on  the subject of music composition. A web browser is used of course and unfortunately,you cannot even download the (midi) samples. However if your ears are good enough,you can pick the notes out. Well of course for  the musically literate ( I am literate,but read slowly) you can read the notes and digest the content.  I'd say my composition skills went up the moment I read through Mr Guttman's program,worth the money,actually more than what I payed for it!! 

Additionally,where do I post my Synfire creations? I have some wonderful music to share!! Soundcloud Link below.

(Pls have a listen,Synfire largely at work here)

Yes, Synfire is not a notation program..  I do understand your music compostion theory, and used to suscribe to it a lot.

Often the last thing I did was 'find' a melody to fit all the parts I composed.. The last couple of years, my philosophy has changed.. I play around with a motif or some chords and then work on the melody.  Then after that comes filling in parts, with counter melodies, harmony etc. 

Some schools of thought, consider the melody most important.  Some could consider my use of SFP backwards.. I generate chords and a melody.  And then want to go to Synfire to create additional parts. I get  mixed results. Occassionally SFP generates a totally brilliant part. The time I took some Chick Corea midi piano compositions and grafted onto my song.  Alas i had to tell people I was not that brilliant of piano player at all. 

Band-in-a box, Rapid composer, Synfire Pro, and Logic often , and Tyros all interpret chords differently from each other.. 

Lately I rely on my eyes, orchestral staff editor of all parts, and piano roll editor to create, modify parts.  It is hard to get SFP to do exactly what i WANT it to do..  I understand that's not what is was designed for..  I still find it a useful program.  Using it has given me a much greater comprehension of composition as a whole.  (you could possibly some day strip it down to an elementary Music Theory Teaching tool)

So there is a lot of coaxing..  I usually import into Synfire, as static. But then I have some problems with individual melody lines.  

In short I'm sayiing that your customers are perhaps going to use it in a different manner that you originally intended.

My take, is any method or tool that helps me to accomplish my goal is valid.. And with arthritis settling into my fingers, I can't play with the speed and accuracy that I could when I was 30.

>>Occassionally SFP generates a totally brilliant part.

As someone who is considering purchasing SF, this makes me think it may not be the program for me.  I don't think I want something that actually "writes" for me.  I like to be spontaneous and come up with my own parts. 

I have HN advanced but haven't made much use of it yet.  I like the idea of choosing chords from a pallette for inspiration prior to writing any parts or melody.

>>It is hard to get SFP to do exactly what i WANT it to do..  I understand that's not what is was designed for..  

Can you express in a nutshell what SF's primary value is and what it is designed for?

Why is it difficult to get it to do what you want it to do?  Does it take the control away from you?

Thank you for the response,if you listen to my music ,you would soon find out that I break the rules too ...Haha. I understand your approach and it's very practical,especially these days. I pretty much mix it up as well !! Synfire is a great tool,but very cumbersome workflow for my liking,I can't get my vst plugins running properly(maybe because of my version being 1.6.6) so I just use a soundfont,that sucks I know,but I just need to monitor the sound as i don't have any midi interactivity also.I can't play directly into Synfire..Working with those vectors would take some getting used to as well..I am a real player..Lol!!! Unlike a standard DAW I cannot see the notation,this would really help,a better sytem for note selection would speed things up,also sometimes the chord columns behave erratically and it's really hard to extend the selected chord area.It's like a snapping issue. Well,so be it for now,I guess. Maybe it's just because i am on WIN7 or I did not pay that considerable fee to upgrade.. Haha,I don't know!! The long and short is that I love the program even with it's shortcomings and I produce music of class with Synfire,it's just nice to feed the progam different patterns,ideas and play around to see what comes out of it..There is room for improvement in Synfire,just minor stuff though. BTW,where can I find your music?

Hi,What exactly are you trying to do ? Is the first question,however as being myself my instinct is to help others. If my little info can be useful I would be happy..Did you de-activate voice leading of your melody?  What settings did you use for your figures? Synfire is a genius piece of software,but the workflow is not as one may expect. Ok,practical situation. let's say you have a passage from Mozart's Confutatis (midi file)and you want to incorporate it into a song of your own,you simply copy the midi channels (parts)or the entire section into Synfire , you can  keep the phrasing/basic structure, but  alter the harmony (progressions)as you like and get really impressive results,but you must be patient. Also you can compose with Synfire and not be worried or too intimidated by wrong notes or counterpoint,once you know how to use the figure(VL,Chromatic,Segment) settings etc. You can alter the note choices that's offered in Synfire's vector system,but your choices would be influenced by that very setting. You can even harmonise parts automatically in SN,simply by moving vector positions on an alternate track. Knowing Synfire is the key!! It's as good as your knowledge of it.. I don't see too many limitations,only the workflow is a bit tedious. SN really is really the perfect composer's idea theif I'd say to sum it up..Stravinsky would agree!! Haha It's the ultimate music prototyping software!! If I can help you in anyway,pls let me know...Most of these tracks I use Synfire on..Soundcloud Link below.

Hi... BOGSIE777

Do you think that people (musicians, composers, ...) who are used to compose in a DAW with a score editor can easily transfer their musical knowledge into Synfire ? 

I don't think I want something that actually "writes" for me.

No worries. Synfire doesn't do that (it can't). This is not at all about algorithmic composition (although it can also be used that way to some extent). 

Can you express in a nutshell what SF's primary value is and what it is designed for?

Synfire maps any musical material to the harmony and structure you choose. It helps with collecting the material (phrases, libraries), building the harmony (progressions, palettes) and the structure (arrangement, containers). None of that is done automatically. You are always in control.

The main benefit is all material can be re-used with any harmony and structure. Once you got a decent collection of phrases (your own stuff, or imported), you can assemble new compositions in no time.

Does it take the control away from you?

No. It shifts control to a higher level of abstraction. 

At that level, your control is more powerful. This comes at the cost of not being able to edit the final notes immediately (because they are the result of mapping a lot of parameters).

Sometimes users want to nudge a note a halftone up or down where Synfire doesn't allow it. This is where one must go back and edit the progression to use a (vertical) scale or chord that includes the desired note. This may seem counterintuitive, but has the benefit that all other instruments will also comply to that change. If one would edit one instrument in isolation, the others would clash.

HI. What exactly do you want out of Music Software? I am no expert on SN. SN is like a reverse engineering type product,a sketch pad,very sophisticated analytic/production Music software,a low end sequencer. It may never become more like a DAW/score editor  than it is presently!!   Synfire does not really impact on your musical knowledge first of all,just another higher level of thinking musically to put it simply. It's just a matter you adjusting in terms of a new ''alien workflow'' and non musical UI. To answer the question more directly. No,my experience was not easy,even to get sound out of it!! Synfire is not like a DAW or Score editor in quite a few ways..It was made for a different purpose. Eg. How it handles Vsts,a vector system for pitch manipulation instead of notation etc and a standard grid system as found in most sequencers,and other standard and convenient features not present. However it's like a new tool in a workman's toolkit,it can enhance your craft. It's a matter of flexibility and adaptability. My sad case? Hmm. When I looked Synfire the first time I was like (holy jesus,what did I spend all this money on? ) I needed some mental preparation for the new UI learning curve madness after using cubase for over a decade now,it took a month before I even touched Synfire again. Synfire is a BEAST!!!! Very Robust. Whatever is made in (I am assuming) Germany,is made to last a lifetime!! If you have the patience to learn a new workflow,Synfire then I would recommend as a great Composer's Companion. I love Synfire that's why i did not abandon it despite the tedious side of things. A blessing to embrace, would be a Synfire whose face resembles that of a standard DAW...Once you get the work flow down though,then it's relatively smooth sailing,but be prepared for a  considerable learning curve. Consider this as well,I don't know the cost and rigours of developing such a sophisticated software,so I try comment with respect and at the same time honesty. Cheers to Andre!!

Link below,SN in serious use in my productions!!

Well said!

Thanks for extensive answer and you are satified with it ! :)

Perhaps do you have more ideas to improve Synfire further !
Interesting to read more about your workflow of composing.. to get a better understanding how Synfire is intented to use ?, because it has a alien workflow compared with a DAW.
Maybe you can describe your workflow for composing more in detail ?
Problem is always if a software program will be a commercial succes, it must be rather accessible for people.
It must be clear how to work with the program and that is difficult to ascertain for Synfire for a newcomer as you can read in some posts on this forum.

Once you understand as user that form ( harmony) and content (phrases) can work independently of eachother..you can compose a lot

Thanks Andre for your fine explanations.  I appreciate it.  I haven't figured out how to quote a previous reply yet using this forum software except for copy/paste in order to make clearer what I'm responding to.

I will have much more time to play music by July, so I may download the demo then.  Some comments about learning curve and "tedious" makes me shy away a bit because I'm not the quickest learner in the classroom.

Jim

I want to make it clear that I totally accept and appreciate SFP. I was pointing out, not all of us compose in the manner that Andre does. My method(s) of composing have grown and changed over the years.  I do not approach composition in the manner I did 20 years ago.  My musical tastes (as everyone) evolves too.  I used to make loud outragous music, with the most bizarre patches you could find on analog modular synths.. I  was involved and worked for a disco label..

I have little desire to make disco music now. 

Synfire Pro is a musical tool, like many out there that has many functions.. Not all tools do all functions..SFP will not 'make a song for you'..  You have to learn how to use the features.  The beauty of Synfire Pro, is that Andre has programmed in algo rhythms that cover a lot of music theory, that would take us as student to spend a few years on.  Now some might see that as a crutch.  but so isn't everything these days.. Your cellphone has hundreds and hundreds of telephone numbers stored in its memory. Is that taking something away from you as a person?

Yes, with SFP I can write a contrapuntal classical piece, that I would not be able to do by myself.  One of the great things about SFP is that yes, you can make music you would never be able to do un-aided.. But you start to perceive music in a different way.. I have no problem taking an unrelated flute midi part and grafting it into my Logic Pro sound.

Now I understand scales, chords, modes. I easily message the flute part to fit into my piece. I do it by hand.. Synfire does it automatically (and still better with a wider assortment of choices)

SFP is not for everyone. It has a hard learning curve. You have to be willing to devout a significant amount of time to master it.. But you can still get desireable results as you go along.  Like any musical instrument you can learn three chords and play a song in the first hour.  But you will spend the rest of your life mastering your  instrument.

There are dozens and dozens of features in SFP, and they  interact with each other in many ways depending on where they are in the layers.. So it is not as 'straight ahead' as say a sequencer program.  It is sometimes hard to predict the results of a couple of commands you put  in.  As you learn the program just like any other.  You gain control of it. I do not have the knowledge to get SFP to create a note for note transcription of what I have in mind.  It was not designed to do that.  

Although I may not use SFP as much or in the same manner as others here.. It serves it's purpose for me.   

You have to be the judge of it for yourself.. Play with the demo, read thru the message boards..

Hi,thank you for your  response and understanding..Now back from work,you may experience many typos..Lol. Ok, I use synfire as an extension of the musical side of my brain. My basic workflow is below

1.Compose in Cubase

2.Export labeled Midi parts from your DAW. Launch SNF and then ( hit file ) Import  to synfire (NB!!! Recognise  chords,scales and keys is  checked!!

3.Assign instruments to the specific tracks. This action sets up your instrument categorization automatically,though you may have to reset it later.  Select -import for device-  choose your sound source ( Coolsynth  in my case,I use a soundfont as my sound source because my vst plugins are not working properly in SNF on Windows 7) and  track types Pay attention to the Preset area!!  Is your track of a harmonic nature,monophonic,or a bass etc ? Chooose accordingly,and adjust to suit. Note that , it's best that you  leave Horizontal,Monophonic and Accidentals on ( Leave all symbols off. They off by default in this case anyway. Importing controllers is a good idea also but not necessary. It's optional.

4. Start Import then proceed to preview ( more on this later ) each part in the arrange window. I suggest check the  melody first!!

5. I generally change the auto generated chords suggested by SN by  selecting the  unwanted chord, then hitting the Harmony tab (a green square) on the right. Note, It may take some trying to input your chords accurately or to correct them,the chord columns malfunctions at times and are tiny when you use many changes. Not easy to deal with!! Between the chord column an arrow appears,it's hit and miss situation here!! This arrow extends or contracts the selects chord column. This allows you to stretch a Cm chord from let's say from bar 7 to 8 for example,replacing whatever was in that place. Synfire may freeze and you may loose your data!! I simply save/restart  if I sense an imminent problem with the chord selection function. SNF is very smart though,it remembers your last project state once you have saved your project,so you can resume after restarting. Another problem I encounter occasionally when using the Harmony function,is that when you input a chord SNF does not update or it will undo your entire chord sequence and seemingly undo all your take and FIgure ( See step 6) settings. Maybe it's just Windows 7,I am not sure. However you can simply undo your last steps if SN does not freeze up,usually it's ok.

6. I then hit the take button- Use Auto detect if you are not sure what setting is appropiate for your track,but just make a selection based on the number of notes stacked in your specfic track . ( obvously,polyphony for more than one note and monophonic for leads and Basses in most cases) The default settings are usually on point after you select a preset.

7. Hit the figure button and seek out what sounds good to your ears,use a weak setting  and bypass VL if melody sounds unlike what you played,you may have to engage the  chromatic mode  if your melody is of that nature eg. (https://soundcloud.com/clayton-malcolm-jackson/stupid-man...I) used that setting in this situation.

By  showing you examples you can get the picture I hope!

(https://soundcloud.com/clayton-malcolm-jackson/intro-news-drama)

...The above is a relatively Complex orchestration ..Vl can be used on  the horn sections flute fill,string runs or less prominent parts  safely,provided you dont mind it sounding the way SNF suggests,whichis usually remarkable. You get the idea? On the whol,your melody is the one to really watch  !!

8. Use the vectors to edit areas of concern and use  the first (1st) segment tool to adjust individual notes or (2nd) sections,use your computer's up/down arrows to lower or raise the vector's position after selection. To listen a specific (section) segment,simply drag a box around the note(s) of interest,it plays back automatically,you can also drag in the time ruler area ( a blue line will appear indicating the looped bars or section of a bar ) to loop a certain point of the song you need to fix. Go through all the tracks  if necessary and use the above method until your ears are satisfied.

9.File-Export to Standard midi file,select your folder and you are done. Any other manipulation,like controllers-pitch bend,mod wheel data etc,I suggest that you do that in your DAW.

I hope I was clear enough and I am willing to help you or anyone as much as I can to the extent of my knowledge or at least to get a clueles user  moving,there are other little tricks I discovered in SNF,and of course I know a lot of details that can expand SNF and make it more commercially viable. But I will not post here. I reserve that for the owners as I am not working for this company ...Lol!!

SYNFIRE is a great product period!! It's not an all in one type software, but it can potentially save you some contrapuntual headaches. Additionally seriously considering the rigity of counterpoint and various aspects of music theory,I find it quite fitting to allow SNF to deal with it. Oh yeah,I said it!!!  Find out how you can bend SNF to suit your needs.

Time for some zzzz's. Thank you

Haha,great! so you do know your way around a bit. I just like to use synfire,get my results and leave as soon as possible! Lol. Yes,the workflow can be much more simplified to attract a wider scope of users,presently only really intellectual or people with some knowledge of theory would be attracted to SNF. It's all good though.By the way, Did you get v 1.7 ?? Have youuploaded any music,I would love to hear!!

Hello Pete

Thank you for sharing the SecretComposer info ... I have just bought it and it seems to be a great "global" tutorial, covering a wide range of music - highly recommended  if you are a hobbyist- and very reasonably priced.

I must say, this has developed into a fascinating and interesting thread - great to see so many opinions and differing requirement.

My take on it is;

1. Everybody has different requirements - it is unlikely there will ever be any single program that satisfies everybody - and if there was it would be very complex..
2. What would solve some of the Orchestral issues would be a simple melody harmoniser (to create unison, octave up/down, 3rds, 5ths etc) - all linked to the master melody/motif you are composing. There has been a thread on this before and it should be fairly easy to implement, I would have thought. The lack of this facility is causing me to  use multiple programs and import into Synfire .... messy.
3. With regards to Melody generators, I think a good interim step would be to have a melody "embellisher". So, when you have a basic motif, you can rapidly generate variations of the motif to choose  alternate / countermelodies etc

Great thread guys - and thanks for the effort and time people are putting into it.

Yes ,   :) ..i know a lot of the features of this program, but still i am stucked when i want experiment with a feature..take for example the  sketch feature.
I like to experiment/play live with the palette for some chord progression variations for a arrangement.

You  can listen some music made with Synfire https://soundcloud.com/#janamdo/tracks
The classical ones are some not composed by myself, because their complexity ..they cannot be composed in Synfire yet as they are composed in Cubase.
I am/was focussed on classical composing and there is other modern composing too what has my interest

( i can't listening now ? (explorer9 .. with crome its ok) , so what is wrong with soundcloud, perhaps not for your listening)

I use  the latest version ..

Interesting to read your workflow.

1) That you use Cubase for composing is remarkable, because synfire primairy source of composing are recorded phrases or imported midi's

5) The chords can be also played with a palette for a arrangement in a live mode as a sketch
You can convert the arrangement to a sketch and satisfied ..reconvert
With the live pallette there is more to choose what direction your chordprogression can go ( modulations for example)
Chord manipulation seems to be troublesome for you ..i use also windows 7
Cannot follow this exactly for now..try to understand this 

8The vectors are those green controlling lines for a parameter, but the default controllers using in a DAW then..  

To make synfire commercially viable can not be of my concern too, but is the result of easier working with this software

Interesting is the use of a sketch.. but i don't get good practical grip on it yet.
 

Yes, Secret Composer is a great learning tool..  It is a great way to fill in the gaps, get a better overview of music, or discover new areas of music which must be learnt. My music education is wide and scattered. Started at ten playing songs out fake books, with a great Hammond organ teacher.. Played organ in church. Then joined a rock band,  The guitar player was the arranger, he would genereal suggest ideas for each or us to play. . I quit bands at 24 - totally by 30. Then began a 40 + years of working in recording studios, as an engineer, head arrangements, producer.. I always had access to studio when it was down..  I poured thousands upon thousands of hours into it.  I taught myself 90%

I learned a lot from other people, I learned what worked, but didn't know 'why' it worked (which has it's +'s and -'s. I then took several semesters of Berklee online courses.. (expensive but great).. They filled in the 'holes in my music knowledge'.. I now understood, why certain proceedures workd, and could reapply it to different situations to suit my needs.. SFP has been like that, when I grasped what it was doing, I did it manually by hand in Logic, fixing adding notes to suit my particular musical need. 

Great genre's of music have sprung up by people bending the rules, or not knowing what they are.  Having a good musical vocabulary saves you a lot of time experimenting and spending time.. Although for some this is part of the journey. Some of the world's greatest musicians are self taught.. of course some musicians have a better edge over other musicians.. 

Although I was never a virtualoso. I developed the sense of arranging, overall sound, why a great sounding part by itself, will loose to a blander part for the sake of coherency in the music..  Music is each man's journey.  I met one composer working on a musical.  (I helped him make mock-ups of all the songs). He didn't know notes or chords from a doorknob.. 
But he would sing each part to me, and I woud learn it, and record it.. The finished results were very impressive..

Jackie Gleason the comedian, did a couple of albums that way.. With no musical knowledge, he sang the notes.Someone transcribed them. He made several albums this way. Once he was conducting a 60 piece orchestra of one of his songs. He heard a wrong note in the brass.. Stopped the orchestra, tracked down the erring note, and went on. Remarkable for someone who did not even know what notes were. 

Hi,good day janamdo...Please add me directly to your account,the link takes me to my Soundcloud page,strange!