Posted
Hello
I am a user of HN in a while. I tried a couple of times a demo of HN2 and Synfire (thanks, Andre!) And purpose of the new audio development I would like to express my personal opinions about my needs (and perhaps other users):
SYNFIRE is a fantastic program for all types of compositions (even better with the new audio system and integrated with any DAW), although its complexity (and price) far exceeds the needs of a pop song composition. I understand that for this reason COGNITONE has developed a simpler version, HN2, with 2 editions: Light Edition and Advanced Edition.
I think HN2 Light Edition is a very accomplished to quickly experiment with chord progressions that inspire new ideas, and is sufficient for this purpose.
HN2 Advanced Edition is the program that best fits my needs (experimentation and creation of songs with a basic structure of pop), but I find 2 gaps that hamper and hinder work with it:
1 - Lack of synchronization with a DAW (ReWire - Track Drones - MIDI ...), which prevents work seamlessly with audio tracks (drum loops, manual harmonization ofa vocal track, etc.)... Could be solved by adapting to HN2 part of the new Synfire audio system.
2 - Lack of a "piano roll" editor for corrections. The workflow for melodies is to record them to a melody instrument using an external keyboard. A simple piano roll editor would be good for small corrections of interpretation: note up / down, note duration, note cut/ copy / paste. This would streamline the work with your own recordings. Currently, I record the line in my DAW (Ableton Live!), then I correct or edit it, then export to MIDI, then import to HN2 and check if it is well with the rest of the composition !, which is tedious.
I wonder if I can expect that these improvements are implemented, as I have to decide whether to upgrade to HN2 (if I can work more smoothly), buy Synfire (exceeds my needs by 80%), or working with solutions such as Schwarzonator 2 (which do not meet my expectations)
Waiting for your answer, thank you very much in advance.
Thu, 2011-07-14 - 11:59 Permalink
What's really sad right now is that HN2 is only one step ahead of being the definitive tool for songwriting. In its present form you cannot work with melody and harmony in real time, you just toy with harmonic progressions, and that's not songwriting. The option of harmonizing a fixed melody alone is not a good option for a decent composer. The addition of song structure was an immense leap forward. I love that, but it only makes me wish more and more for the step that is still missing.
It needs at least an editable midi track or an audio track or, the best option by far, integration with any DAW. Everytime that HN2 is mentioned at audio forums like Kvr the same question is asked: "does it work as a plugin inside a DAW". When someone replies "no" the interest fades away.
To be honest, if the next update doesn't allow HN2 to work in some way alongside Cubase, I will buy Halion Sonic just to use its flex phrases system in combination with the Harmony Improvisator plugin, that I also own. I will only use HN2 from time to time, and only because I like it so much. It is not as incredibly useful as it could be. As simple as that.
Thu, 2011-07-14 - 12:39 Permalink
That new audio layer for synfire pro that you can work directly within your DAW and the hassle of setting up your VSti is gone..that new feature will be also made transferred to Harmony navigator 2 ( that is going to be happenin the near future ..i assume? )
So than you can do all things in your DAW!
I like to see 2 dedicated midi tracks in HN2 for composing melodies and working with audiotracks in your DAW
Thu, 2011-07-14 - 16:39 Permalink
https://users.cognitone.com/content/are-you-working-vst-hn-well-synfire-automatic-installer-ive-not
it is coming also for HN2
Thu, 2011-07-14 - 16:46 Permalink
Harmony Navigator does just what it set out to do. If you want full songwriting flexibility, get Synfire Pro. I know a big jump in price, but there is nothing out there that does what this does as well. HN2 is a very stripped down version of Synfire Pro. It makes sense Andre did it this way. It gets people acquianted with the software, and they can upgrade to SFP, and not lose any money.
I first got HN2. After a week or two, I tried the demo of SFP and upgraded to that. It is a lot of $$. I never spent that much money on music software (well actually the Emagic Logic Pro, cause they kept charging you for add on instruments). Cognitone is a small company (right now), and I believe they actually need to charge this much, to keep eveything going.
When Emagic sold Logic Pro to Apple, Apple was able to cut the price in half, cause it would help sell hardware.
In the meantime, save your HN2 midifill import into Band in a box, and create melodies, harmonies, solo's to your hearts content.
Thu, 2011-07-14 - 17:20 Permalink
Sorry bout the double reply - wifi died on upload, or I thought it did.
HN2 perfectly does what it was designed to do. If you want melody and harmony features, get Synfire Pro. I bought HN2 and played with it for two weeks, I came to a similar conclusion. I tried the demo of Synfire Pro. I was hooked. Perhaps Cognitone will add some features, but don't expect them to make it too similar to their top of the line software.
Years ago, I used Emagic's Logic Pro, It was expensive, when you started adding on their individual instruments, E piano, organ, etc. After Apple bought it, they used some of it's software in other Apple software, They then cut Logic Pro's price in half. It was the perfect software to sell more hardware. They are a huge company and can afford to do this.
Cognitone is a small company, but they give the most bang for buck (features developed by a small staff of software engineers). Purchasing Synfire Pro, is the most amount of money i have spent for software in a long time. But worth it to me. Every user has a different criteria for purchases. You dont want to spend $1200 in software for a 'hobby' - $200 is fine.
With time, I'm sure Andre will figure out the $$$/feature curve, then everyone can be happy.
Thu, 2011-07-14 - 17:40 Permalink
"If by "automatic installer" you mean VSTi support, yes, HN2 will also support that."
I understand that HN2 will host VSTIs, not that HN2 will work as a VSTI inside a host. I wish that I'm wrong.
And Synfire is overkill for me. All I'm saying is that HN2 lacks just one single feature to be perfect for songwriting. If it never gets that feature in order to not compete with a product that goes well beyond simple songwriting, that would not make sense to me. I prefer to work inside my DAW only with Harmony Improvisator and Halion Sonic than to add another program like BiaB to the equation.
Thu, 2011-07-14 - 18:40 Permalink
Hi
I understand that HN2 will host VSTIs, not that HN2 will work as a VSTI inside a host. I wish that I'm wrong.
You can read the blog about synfire pro that also for HN2 will be the automatic Vsti installer used and also a direct connection with your DAW! ( if i am right? )
So you can work right away in your Sequenzer software ..there is a direct connection with HN2 for midi
So for melodyrecording you can use your own software sequenzer
For composing with HN2 as a plugin VSTI for a DAW is also a hassle to set this up in your sequenzer
Now there is HN2< ==> DAW and the connection is automatically made by HN2 for the accompaniment tracks ( 8 i believe ..but i like to see some more) ..so it is very easy to use !!
Thu, 2011-07-14 - 20:32 Permalink
"...And Synfire is overkill for me. All I'm saying is that HN2 lacks just one single feature to be perfect for songwriting. If it never gets that feature in order to not compete with a product that goes well beyond simple songwriting, that would not make sense to me. I prefer to work inside my DAW only with Harmony Improvisator and Halion Sonic than to add another program like BiaB to the equation..."
Exactly. I tried both programs, Synfire and HN2. The issue is not Synfire´s price (I have no doubt it's worth). The point is that I do not need 80% of its characteristics or its complexity.
HN2 is better suited to my needs, but the lack of the two features mentioned include the need to export / import midi continuously, making the process less fluid.
Remember we are talking about the process of musical composition, which should be as immediate as possible (how long will the inspiration with me?)
Finally, I do not think the inclusion of a simple mini-editor of phrases and synchronize with DAWs in HN2 make it too similar to the top of the line software.
Thu, 2011-07-14 - 21:59 Permalink
Finally, I do not think the inclusion of a simple mini-editor of phrases and synchronize with DAWs in HN2 make it too similar to the top of the line software.
There will be no need for a simple mini-editor in HN2, because there is a direct connection with HN2 and your DAW if the automatic installer is ready for HN2 as i understand
All the 8 tracks of HN2 are in your DAW i thougt
So there is a direct communication with HN2 and your DAW for midi..it is more easy to transfer midi files than ..with one button or so..i think
So you can do your melody editing in a DAW
Tue, 2011-08-23 - 16:39 Permalink
Well, yes you are right, with the new engine, all the 8 tracks of HN2 are in your DAW.
But what if you want to change the arp direction of the accompaniment, and after that want to continue experimenting with progressions?
- You click the one button you mentioned, to transfer the midi to the DAW
- record the phrase in the DAW
- edit the arp section
- export MIDI
- import the phrase into HN2
With the minieditor, it would be some mouse clicks, now this 5 steps is pain in the ...