Adding instruments to the containerscreen

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janamdo's picture
janamdo
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Adding instruments to the containerscreen

A new tab in the arrangmentscreen with the upper container screen with instrumenttracks to the left and where the instrumenttracks are lined up with a container ( every instrumenttrack has his own containerlane ) and all this in one screen.
 

Every instrumenttrack has his own containerlane connected ..further :
 

  • grouping folder for grouping instruments
  • coloring instrumentfamilies for orchestral composing
  • every instrument has a own container lane
  • section marker
  • container will be colored when recording a figure
  • all in one screen ( no need to go container screen or to arrangementscreen )
  •  figure is shining thrue container
  •  height instrumentstrack adjustable
  • automations visible

This is a extra feature in Synfire for people who want to compose on the traditional manner like in a DAW and done by many professional composers
 

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janamdo
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I enclosed  a video for setting up a project template

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/d82aztjg3ca18fh3hy70t?oref=e&r=AAS7RXRVolhbKko-X5HbipgOQHdM0fUAjIMsC-hfDDu9G5ppxVFUge5-aerDjynPXWm5mOR0Xlp87WdhS9pvo2fO2ErqVqR4xZ4moEPz0FPVw4VIObHTSTlMRg3yzSkMOynBt2FBDkCJ-4u7cL6tG-REVkHumfv03GRgF8Gkw31JWA&sm=1

I think it is too much asked to aspect that Synfire will be made more suitable like composing in a DAW like Cubase..it will never happens i think.
Come up with further ideas here on the forum make no sense then.

 

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No need for a negative stance. Suggestions are always welcome. We appreciate you taking the time to come up with ideas. Changing the user interface at this level and depth however would block software development for many months. That'd be a huge project. The list of planned and pending changes is already very long. We need to see considerable demand and discussion around new features, before they would justify this.

If I understand correctly, you suggest some kind of flat view on all content with automation lanes etc. I can see how this would be helpful to maintain an overview of the piece (there are similar suggestions for a flat static output view). A flat view would however get in the way of a modular design, the idea of combining elements and moving them around freely.

On the other hand, I like the idea of showing more than one parameter of a phrase at the same time. That's similar to automation lanes and makes a lot of sense.

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janamdo
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There is a strict order for containers now, but with another one new screen:  combined tracks with containers have not a order for containers
When you assign a containerlane to a instrument track.. the recording ads a (colored) container to the figure recording
What ever you record or copy ..a colored position container will be added on the vector canvas.

This is totally different then Synfire now is.

 

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There is totally freedom to place the colored containers in the arrangement screen..there is no container order:  from left to right or from bottom to top

Under the track with figures there is a collapsable  serie of parameterlanes ( what is in Cubase 8.5/9 is present ) 

 

andre's picture
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I'm afraid I don't yet understand the suggestion. Can you perhaps show a diagram?

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Yes, i thought so, i tried to make a diagram this morning, but when i startup the computer i got a error message (out of the blue..yesterday not ) from the ilok : error 1603
 

janamdo's picture
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I made a simple diagram with the smartphone.
It is one screen with left instruments and right containers combined.
Every instrument track is connected with a container track
Suppose i could assign colors to instrument families .. here i took for strings a red color

i record a string figure : it shows as a red container  ( the figure it shining thrue and automations like volume and velocity too shining thrue the red container box), can enlarge the container in height to show more

Suppose i take a woodstring instrument ( colored blue)  ..recorded this at the start..it shows up as blue container  

On this way.. i can record random colored containers in the screen on any position, thus capable now to setup easy a colored music structure..like the pro composer do in Cubase
Totally freedom to work any songsection you want in Synfire : many times start it with a A main theme   (intro- A main- etc)
Let the creative juices flow...not dictated to a order of containers like it is now inSynfire ;)

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blacksun's picture
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I assume the diagram you want is similar to the one you posted in the other thread? Calling your coloured boxes containers is really confusing as synfire containers are position sensitive, moving a container in synfire can result in a completely different song.

As Ive been 'discussing this with you through the forum', I think I am begining to understand what you want. Would the following describe a compromise for what you are after?

A view (would probably have to be read only as it would go against the way synfire works), where all the instruments are listed down the left. Going across the page is a series of blocks/clips. Each clip is the resulting output of all that synfire uses to generate the midi for the song. Together with the option to apply a colour based on the instrument. These instrument tracks could be grouped to help organise the view (e.g. all violins, violas, grouped into a string group track) and optionally collapsed so the group track hides the instrument tracks beneath but show a combination of all the track clips it hides (just a summary that someting is there). If you zoom into a midi clip you get to see more detail; at a high level, just that there is something there, a coloured clip, but as you zoom in you get some indication of the midi note data present. Zoom in more and you can see extra info like velocity or other cc.

It would be the equivilent of exporting to a daw, colouring the different tracks and grouping them in the DAW. Going through the midi tracks and cutting out the bits where nothing is playing so each track becomes a list of clips with gaps between them rather than a clip lasting the length of the song with parts that have no data. Similar to what you would end up with if you worked only in the daw.

If that is what you are suggesting, then it would be a great addition to Synfire and satisfy a number of the requests that have been made over the years. It might also help people adapt to Synfire that have come from a daw background.

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Yes, the diagram is similar http://users.cognitone.com/files/forum/1501/track_structure_1_arn.jpg

It is working on the DAW way, like in Cubase..this can be a strong selling point !

You can work with groupfolders and assign a container to this too ..with nested red containers in it (say for strings)..this is the top level of the music structure. 

What is/are the advantage(benefits) of the current workflow of Synfire opposed to this suggested workflow ?..but perhaps there is a technical limitation in how software must work?
It is not a addition.. or Synfire must add a new tab for this (composel like in your daw )

Composing is not limited to orchestral composing..you can work with any colored music structure you like to keep oversight
 

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Sorry I see that I posted my reply whilst you were editing your post, so I now see you aren't asking for a read only view. Sorry for hijacking your suggestion. I see now that you basically want synfire to be able to act exactly as a daw, even though most people with synfire will have a daw already.

 

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No, not for reading only, but for composing in Synfire and this is think much more powerful then in a DAW with the libraries and figure/container manipulations
You can still compose in Synfire on the old way ..only it is easy now to come up with a musical structure ( start with a outro ..but mostly you start with a mainA theme) 

Also like to have a audio track in Synfire..
What makes do you think the current Synfire better then the suggested Synfire by me? 
The reading feature can also added...

 
 

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Thanks for clarifying.

What is/are the advantage(benefits) of the current workflow of Synfire opposed to this suggested workflow ?

I understand that most new users start out by using Figure as a replacement for MIDI and otherwise stick with the workflow they're used to (Figure and Harmony being the only parameters used). Your suggested view would help those users arrange their songs as they always did. 

Synfire follows a more generative approach, that is, it is thought of as "generating a score through parameters". By grouping parameters into a container, it is possible to move them around as a whole and alter the output of one or more instruments depending on what's previously going on there. A container's is kind of a parameter itself.

The advantage now is that containers can be moved around without changing anything else in the song, and still get you dramatic effects:

  • Imagine a container with alternating Pause patterns in it. You could move/copy it to any place and get interesting call/response effects.
  • Imagine a container with staccato-like Step parameters and what it will do when moved around. Or Transpose parameters.
  • Imagine a container with slow legato figures for selected instruments and what happens when you move them to elsewhere.

The whole idea of Synfire is to get past the flat piano roll and move towards a generative, conceptual, story-telling way of composing. Sure, eventually every composition needs to be fine-tuned and worked on in a piano roll or score/notation view. But that's happening at a stage when your piece is mostly composed already. That's what you will be doing in a DAW or notation program anyway.

That being said, thinking about other views for arranging is a continuous side project here. Therefore your suggestions are absolutely welcome.

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 I see now that you basically want synfire to be able to act exactly as a daw, even though most people with synfire will have a daw already.

The new proposed workflow in Synfire is for protyping a arrangement..the (editing)mixing and mastering can be done in DAW 

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The advantage now is that containers can be moved around without changing anything else in the song, and still get you dramatic effects:

Although the record container (or copycontainer) can be recorded anywhere on the timeline of a track for any combinations of tracks..it is still be free  movable  to the left or right ( it stays on the instrument containerlane )
It has only a fixed position during recording, but after recording you can do with it anyway you like (moving left to right ) or copy to another instrument track
I can still add a nested container to the colored container for parameters..or do i miss something ?
Maybe there can be added a solo container track what can be inserted under a track ..also good for automations

i don't know if this technical is possible ?

The leading thing is here : the colored musicstructure what shows easy the whole arrangement .. whatever i like to start with songsections ( mainly a MainA theme )
You can easily construct now the most complex orchestral arrangements with colored containers ..and it is automatically.and every instrument is visible direct as group (no clicking on a container anymore to get the content..? )

http://users.cognitone.com/files/forum/1501/struktuur_2_arn.jpg

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Not really a problem to build up a linear container structure with Synfire:

http://users.cognitone.com/files/forum/1516/linear_container_structure.jpg

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There is no need to buildup a lineair static container structure in the "new" Synfire like it must be done in the old Synfire.. i build this up automatically with my recorded colored ( or not automatically ) containers and  i can start to build up my musicalstructure anywhere on the timeline.
Further is the structure detached from the instruments in the old synfire ..look at two enclosed pics where the music structure
 is so clear 

I got the idea that i can do the same thing in the new automatically added colored container synfire and much easier then in the old synfire  ;)..maybe i am completely wrong?
I magine.. i record a string violin on random track on a random position on the timeline after recording there  is a colored container with a figure inside..suprize!

Add a grouptrack toplevel container for instrumentfamilies with inside the added instruments 
I hope that this is clear for now what i do have in mind for the new Synfire?

 

 

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I am thrilled about my idea of automatically recorded colored containers..will it ever will be implemented in Synfire ?
Ten of thousands of people working now with their DAW ..composing and now with the colored containers in Synfire they can work on the same way as they are used of and build easy every imaginable musicstructure with ease ..like the pro composer do..but much more they can do with parameter containers and library and chords.  
It is a dream whats coming true..

 

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If your view is not a read only view, then you need to explain how you represent the current synfire way of working. Where your chord progressions are, how synfire will know which container (traditional synfire container) to put the recording into. Most of us, once we have got to grips with synfire, love the different way of working synfire and the advantages that brings. Otherwise you seem to be suggesting a new view that excludes the normal synfire workflow. Everything you show would have to be in the root container with no other traditional synfire containers or I see no other way of it working? Currently synfire containers have every instrument present although the tracks maybe empty. All sorts of questions arise with your view and workflow, but it does bet the question, why? if you want to work that way, why not do it in a daw?

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 Everything you show would have to be in the root container with no other traditional synfire containers or I see no other way of it working?

No, my first idea of working completely alone in the root container for setting up a music structure ..that first initial idea a have throwed away (forget that)
Now i still use a rootcontainer like the present Synfire (probably needed? ), but combine the instrument track screen and the container screen into one screen ( see the pencil sketch)
You can get the traditonal synfire containers too ( there is a difference : there is no strict order anymore for executing them..remember? when you place containers )  ..the new synfire containers are connected to a instrument track ..like in a DAW when you record midi notes

I got also the idea that in the new Synfire you can do the same as in the old, but much easier

Really, i got the idea that building up easy a colored music structure the key is for orchestral composing like professional composers do (but for all sort of composing) in Synfire
 

 

 

 

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I enclosed a pic what gives the difference , between container handling..the bottom container cannot be added in the old synfire..this blocks the way to build up a colored music structure.
This container can be placed manual (no..i don't want to do that) under the topcontainer in the old synfire, but in the new synfire i do want group colored containers  

you can make any configuration you like in the new synfire to build up a colored music structure of instrumentfamilies for orchestral composing of recorded containers filled with figures.  

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andre's picture
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Containers are not placed on "tracks". Their positioning reflects nesting and order of precedence. What you see is actually a tree.

The instruments inside a container could be viewed as "tracks" (layers thereof), but generally there is no such thing in Synfire. Phrases for the same instrument in different containers can overlap each other, disabling each other temporarily, etc. This temporary overshadowing is one of the most powerful tools.

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Suppose you could place a container by recording/ or manual on a instrument track..there is no temporary overshadowing possible ? 
Adding some nested containers to the colored container..  
Probably it has to to do with how to evaluating the parameters in this free colored container structure setup?
With the colored recorded container on any position it should be very easy to build up a complex music structure and keep oversight like in Cubase 

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It's a pity you removed the link to the second picture, as that pretty much sums up how I would arrange my containers in synfire to represent the flow of the song. 

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no not that picture, the picture of the song with 5 rows, melody, harmony,other,etc and text going across like strings, stacatto strings,etc...It was in the post http://users.cognitone.com/comment/15400#comment-15400 just after the http://users.cognitone.com/files/forum/1501/container.jpg picture

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This one?
orchestration form..the graph is the dynamics and it is 4 parts sections

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thats the one....not quite sure what the diagram intends to show, but from my impression.....

Melody A -high piano one container piano with celesta, octave down nested container with transpose starting in 2nd part of container....

Similar for violin1, and nested container containing violin 1,2,flutes in octaves starting in the second half.

and so on... easy to turn that type of song plan into a series of nested synfire containers. Use alias containers if the container's figure repeats in a later container and additional child/nested containers to alter the parameters that dont repeat (e.g. the octave down transpose). You can then play around really easy with the structure, parameters, chord progressions, instrumentation till you have what sounds good. Change midi notes/figures in a container and all alias containers automatically update too.

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Thanks for the effort .It shows the choice of instruments for different songsections and the dark graph is the dynamics,  its gradually rising...and so on
Well that´s clear ofcourse as you explained here, i knew this already, but  the problem is to translate this way of composing in Cubase into Synfire

It is with this orchestrationform that you have a  general oversight  of the music structure

i add a video to show the composing process more

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i add a new orchestrationform what is connected with the video named.. practical orchestration ..that is what i study now

1 to 10  intro
10 to 26 Main A part 1
26 to 27 ...sort of rest
27 to 43  Main part 2
.....

 

 

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How about the harmony in the first section? and the soft piano
Then i must be a MainA container with all instruments in it

But forget the first orchestration form.. look at the second one
Can't test it out in Synfire now, because i got a software error from ilok..don't know how to repair this (other then reinstall windows), an the PC system becomes unstable ( high processorload fluctuating and then slow performance ) 

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