Driver in midi output rack is no the same

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janamdo's picture
janamdo
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Driver in midi output rack is no the same

Try to connect the soundmodule of my keyboard to Synfire with a midi external output rack 

The keyboard has two drivers :

-Digital Keyboard -1  ( port 1 )
-Digital Keyboard -2  ( port 2 )

In the midi rack i can choose one of those two drivers 

When i choose both drivers one after another then in the rackmenu  see a message : Downloading Korg M1 -device ? 

Just before this  message i downloaded the Korg M1 - device from the repository  for looking how it i ssetup , but now i removed the device  description again

Why is this message still there ?

 

 

janamdo's picture
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My keyboard PSR SX600 has the same midi specification as Yamaha flagship keyboard Genos 

Problem is that in the external midi output rack i only  1 sound can assign in the rack to SX600 keyboard
More midi channels are not recognised by SX600

Example i can assign a sound 2 in the rack on midichannel 2 , but the SX600 don't receive this 

Can this be fixed in Synfire?..thanks   

Got just a interesting program for handling styles :  My software program "Style Revoicer" at http://www.jososoft.dk/yamaha/software/revsty/index.htm will read MSB LSB and Program numners in style files.

 

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You definately have something set wrong either in the synth or maybe synfire. Are you sure the synth is configured to support multiple channels, it has multiple templates? Synfire definately supports multiple channels when driving a midi device.

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But what i set wrong :) 

Synfire definately supports multiple channels when driving a midi device
 

That's what i thinking too...   

Its on port 1 what the keyboard must receive from Synfire, but when i load this midi driver driver ..i see this message from Korg
This make me thinking that something is wrong in Synfire, but maybe when a midi external output rack is used in Synfire midi drivers ae loaded?
Can assign some midi templates on the keyboard :

All Parts Transmits all parts including the keyboard parts (RIGHT 1, 2, and LEFT), with the exception of Song parts.

KBD & STYLE Basically the same as “All Parts” with the exception of how keyboard parts are managed. The right-hand parts are handled together as “UPPER” instead of RIGHT 1 and 2, and the left-hand part is handled as “LOWER.”

Master KBD In this setting, the instrument functions as a “master” keyboard, playing and controlling one or more connected tone generators or other devices (such as a computer/sequencer).

Song All transmit channels are set to correspond to Song channels 1–16. This is used to play Song data with an external tone generator and to record Song data to an external sequencer.

Clock Ext. Playback or recording (Song, Style, Multi Pad, etc.) synchronizes with an external MIDI clock instead of the instrument’s internal clock. This template should be used when you wish to set the tempo on the MIDI device connected to the instrument.

MIDI Accord1 MIDI accordions allow you to transmit MIDI data and play connected tone generators from the keyboard and bass/chord buttons of the accordion. This template lets you play melodies from the keyboard and control Style playback on the instrument with the lefthand buttons.

MIDI Accord2 Basically the same as “MIDI Accord1” above, with the exception that the chord/bass notes you play with your left hand on the MIDI Accordion are recognized also as MIDI note events.

MIDI Pedal1 MIDI pedal units allow you play connected tone generators with your feet (especially convenient for playing single note bass parts). This template lets you play/control the chord root in Style playback with a MIDI pedal unit.

MIDI Pedal2 This template lets you play the bass part for Style playback by using a MIDI pedal unit.

MIDI Off No MIDI signals are sent or received. 

  ======================================================================

it is much better to record your playing (Style + melody) directly on the SX600 (using MIDI Quick Recording). Save that MIDI file onto the connected USB stick. Then connect the USB stick to the computer and import the MIDI file (.mid) into your DAW (e.g. Cubase). => Midi file format ?

If you do it this way, you will have all the required MIDI data (including GM&XG Resets, global SysEx, Bank Select / Program Change, the Voice Set of the Voices used, other MIDI controllers and effects SysEx) in the MIDI file (and then automatically in the DAW). But if you were to record your performance in the DAW via MIDI, you would have to manually enter all of these data into the DAW afterwards. And this is next to impossible ...

When you play back the imported MIDI file in the DAW and have routed all used MIDI channels to MIDI Port 1 (RECEIVE) of the keyboard, it will sound exactly as you originally played it. (As mentioned before, it is best to use the Preset MIDI template "All Parts". Then all 16 Receive Channels are automatically routed to the corresponding SONG Part of the Keyboard.

In the DAW you can of course CHANGE ALL MIDI data according to your wishes.

P.S.
You should forget the Receive Port 2 in this context. The Keyboard Parts, Style Parts and Multi Pad Parts use internally the MIDI Port 2. But as soon as you RECORD via MIDI Recording, a MIDI song (MIDI file) is created, and MIDI files are always played back via Port 1 (so that the internal SONG Parts are controlled). This is the only way to make it sound exactly as you recorded it.

 

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Firstly I would look at your rack and global rack incase you have a korg m1 setup there somewhere, im not sure what is giving the message about the korg. It could just be that is the name given to the first instrument patch if it is the keyboard saying its a korg m1 rather than piano. If you are getting a synfire korg m1 device appear then I assume one of your racks or global racks must be setup to use a Korg M1 device on a physical midi port.

Secondly it sounds like the keyboard is full featured, if you want to rip the midi used in styles to grab phrases to use in synfire the route it describes of using a usb stick to save the midi sounds like the best idea. However I doubt very much if synfire will import all the sysx and other extra midi when you use it to create phrases. This extra data would be meaningless in a generic library. You would need a device definition with keyswitches, midi cc settings, etc to get the most out of the keyboard.

To use the keyboard with synfire as an external midi sound module, I would assume Clock Ext is the mode you would need so that Synfire controls the timing and position of the play head. 

Without spending ages looking at the manual for the keyboard I wouldnt know how to create a synfire device definition, but to get the most out of the keyboard from synfire you would need to include not only the soundbank patch info, but also any keyswitches and other midi CC controls that you could then use to more fully control the keyboard.

I would start with something simple, work towards getting Synfire configured to drive the midi port with however many voices (midi channels) the keyboard supports, manually selecting the different sounds for each channel on the keyboard itself. This shouldnt need a synfire device at all. Once that is working, the next thing I would look at is defining a device that can change patch on each channel, then build up the list of available sounds. Lastly look at adding any keyswitches and midi CC that the keyboard supports/needs to get the most out of it.

The main difference between using the keyboard with a DAW and synfire is that the DAW will playback whatever midi data you record or import without needing to understand it in any way, it is just treated as raw data (except for the note data). However synfire interprets the midi data so that it can get a generic representation of that data that can be used on other devices too.

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Thanks

I convert a style on keyboard via quickrecording to a midi 
Then  i load this in Synfire via import

No, again considered by me this is not a good idea to use quickrecording on keyboard : importing the whole style with stylemarkers directly in Synfire is most easy way .

Now i need to know what sounds are assigened ( msb/lsb/programnumber) 
If i know this sounds then i can connect a external midi output rack to the keyboard

So the isue is now how to get the msb/lsb/programnumber from the imported midi ( if it exists?)
I must look at the midi language specifications

Recording indeed a style in Synfire is not possible , because not all data is included

Let me hope dat ik can find the sounds information with the help of program ?

regards

Jan

 

 

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Sorry Janamdo, I don't think I understand what a style is nor what you are trying to do. I assumed a style was some sort of auto accumpement type thing and what you wanted to do was grab the patterns it generates for use in a synfire library. If you are trying to capture a 'session' playing on your keyboard so you can recreate it later, synfire is not the tool you want. Record the midi via the usb stick, import into a daw, connect the daw to the keyboard, press play.

When importing midi into a synfire library the only reason to know what type of instrument a track contains is to determine playing range and aid in determining the best interpretation mode to use not to select the same patch when used in a new song. The import process lets you pick the category of instrument to give it these hints. But that assumes you are just trying to grab the notes being generated by playing the keyboard with styles to import into a library for use in new tunes. If you are just trying to record a performance to play back later, just do it in Cubase that will just spew out the midi exactly as the keyboard recorded it including (if sent out as part of the midi stream) patch selection, sysx dumps, notes, midi cc etc.

 

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its not so complicated .. a yamaha style is  software what controls  the accompaniment engine ( hardware) for playing styles with a melody on a keyboard ( left  hands chords for accompaniment and right hand for melody )
Such a software style file  can be imported in Synfire as a .sty

I must only assign the sounds from this style file in Synfire to my arrangerkeyboard SX600
Then i can play them in synfire as a phrase  with the original sound assigned to thephrase 

 

 
 

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Hi Blacksun ..is it clear now what is the setup now in Synfire and why  i try this to achieve?

Only looking now for a program what can extraxt de msb/lsb/programnumber from a style
( ideal if synfyre could show this during import ) 

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Thanks for the explaination. It's not what I would do, I'd rather grab the midi note phrases to store in a library and then use them just like any other phrase pool with any of the software and hardware synths/samplers I have available available.
Anyway, if you are using Windows you could try https://www.midieditor.org/index.php that should be able to open up the midi files youve created and see all the events including patch change information.

 

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The soundquality of the yamaha sounds is not ordinairy but shines  , that's why i want to see how this works out in Synfire.
Hearing the original style quality sounds in Synfire can give inspiration for composing 

Further once composed in synfire it could be loaded again into the keyboard for singing, adding audio and more mixing
Mixing can also be done when playing (arrangement) in Synfire and then listening to the keyboard mixer and live controls.  

Ofcourse i do have a lot vsti, but together with the Yamaha arranger keyboard it is other way of composing
Its also possible to record styles right a way in Cakewalk( Ableton too?) now ( not in Cubase possible) 

The program  http://www.jososoft.dk/yamaha/software/revsty/index.htm "style revoicer" is also very handy , but i will look at the program you mention too.

 

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I'm not suggesting you use something else other than the yamaha keyboard, but if you have the phrases in synfire that the keyboard uses when playing styles you can use the flexibility of synfire with those phrases and just use the keyboard as a sound source (ie it just plays the notes synfire tells it to on each channel and doesnt play anything else). You can then alter the style phrases in synfire and also apply them to different sound sources.
My access virus has some wonderful arp patterns, select the patch and play a chord, but by loading the resulting midi into synfire I can use those arp patterns with any sound on any synth and also use the power of synfire to change the arp pattern in many different ways.

If you could get all the style midi patterns into synfire you wouldnt need to use that style revoicer, just create an instrument in synfire and drag and drop the style pattern into the track, select the sound, job done, style plays with the new instrument.

 

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I'm not suggesting you use something else other than the yamaha keyboard, but if you have the phrases in synfire that the keyboard uses when playing styles you can use the flexibility of synfire with those phrases and just use the keyboard as a sound source (ie it just plays the notes synfire tells it to on each channel and doesnt play anything else). You can then alter the style phrases in synfire and also apply them to different sound sources.

That's what i try the whole time to achieve here on the forum with the posts about this

My access virus has some wonderful arp patterns, select the patch and play a chord, but by loading the resulting midi into synfire I can use those arp patterns with any sound on any synth and also use the power of synfire to change the arp pattern in many different ways.

Thats the standard use of Synfire  using  midi files

If you could get all the style midi patterns into synfire you wouldnt need to use that style revoicer, just create an instrument in synfire and drag and drop the style pattern into the track, select the sound, job done, style plays with the new instrument.

 

The style .sty as midi file should be connected with the right sound on the keyboard soundmodule then?
The style revoicer tool reads msb/lsb/programnumber from a imported style 

 

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The style .sty as midi file should be connected with the right sound on the keyboard soundmodule then?
The style revoicer tool reads msb/lsb/programnumber from a imported style 

What I was saying is it doesnt matter if you can get the voices/patches used in the style, I would only be interested in primarily the midi notes, the patch used just gives a hint to synfire on playing ranges and best interpretation, but you can tell synfire its a piano, its a snare drum manually without synfire needing to know the exact patch. 

Grabbing the phrases and their notes played by using a style is separate to creating and playing back a song. For the first you don't need to know the patch information, yes it can help if you know what type of instrument is playing on each midi track but you only need a generic type. For the second, to use the yamaha as a sound generator synfire doesnt need to know about styles, it wont be using the yamaha styles. Like any sound generator used with synfire, a device definition will let you pick a sound in synfire from the list of patches. The device definiton doesnt need to know about styles, it just needs to know how to select a sound and what sounds are supported.

Once you have captured the midi notes played by using a style (notes not patch selection)  and maybe any expression data (mod wheel, aftertouch,etc) in a synfire library as phrases, you can compose a new song and use any sound device software or hardware. If you use the yamaha as the sound generator and choose the same sounds on your yamaha either using a device definition file or by manually selecting the sounds you can create a song from those phrases; even then it will be a new original composition because of a different chord progression or different combinations of phrases or because of voice leading/interpretation in Synfire.
 

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The device definiton doesnt need to know about styles, it just needs to know how to select a sound and what sounds are supported.

 

The problem is to make a device description for a particular style.sty  file
Can't yet see what sounds on channels are used in the imported style.sty file.

For that i do need a specialized yamaha style editor to find in order to load the style there and see what sounds (msb/lsb/programnumber) are in there.

If the device description of the yamaha soundmodule looks like a multitimbral device desription then the soundassign is dynamic , but i think that this is not possible for this yamaha soundmodule.
So  i use a fixed soundmodule device descrption for 16  sounds.

If it was a multitimbral soundassign like for GM midi files, then the  sounds are automatically choosen from the device description, but that is not possible for the yamaha soundmodule i think.   

Could such a multitimbral setup if possible read also the style .sty ( current.psr)  sounds in the file
A lot of voices ..850 voices+43 Drum?SFX kits + 480 XG voices..brr making a device description..its a job for  monk.    

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Finally!..i got the setup working for styles files (.sty )..drums
The sounds can be assigned , but the imported .sty pattern processed by Synfire for styleparts is not acceptable  
So perhaps styles( .psr )converted to midi files via quickrecording on keyboard are usable in Synfire ?
Otherwise onlythe sound from SX600 can be used 

  

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Drums should always be imported as static unless they are pitched instruments with one sound per channel.

As to your other question about the device definition, I'm glad you got it working as I didnt seem to be able to explain myself well enough to help. Still don't understand why you need a device definition for a style file to grab the notes being played, but anyway glad you've solved it.

 

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Yes, i solved it for connecting SX600 keyboard to Synfire, but were i was hoping for is to use  the possible phrases from the SX600 style (.sty or .psr)  by importing them.

After import a style into Synfire it sounds not really musical as style part( e.g intro, main, etc), maybe some tracks can be used out of style context.
Perhaps it is possible to record a style into Synfire directly what is possible with a free DAW cakewalk. 
Genos Style recording in Cakewalk - create MIDI file (Song) from Yamaha Arranger - YouTube  

I think that Synfire has not the right Midi specification to record directly into a style from keyboard ?

 

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Something different now 
Halion6 is a versatile  soundmodule Vocal Library for HALion - Voice of Wind: Adey | Steinberg

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New idea: recording my arranger keyboard styles into DAW ( Free cakewalk) and export them as midi for import in Synfire

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Works grreat the style(.psr) recording in Cakewalk with psr sx600 ( because sx600 has the same midi specifications as Genos flagship) keyboard.

This can be exported as midi file 1 and imported in synfire and hopefullly get interesting phrases out of it with original sounds.  

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Recording  a style in Cakewalk turns to be out in failure by examples , so i am now doing multirecord recording a style on PSR SX600 keyboard.
I did also quickrecording but that puts all midi on one track and now with multitrackrecording i got different midi tracks in format  1 

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Looks great  after importing a test style what shows excactly on each channel a instrument in Synfire
Now assigning voices to it (on this arranger keyboards is also a voicenumber ( msb/lsb/patchnr) feature for tracking down the style instruments..very handy)

Its now the question if these imported styles sections sounds musical in Synfire?    

Well, still it looks that the imported styles can be used , although not exactly sounding as the original styles
(recorded with only  one chord progression)
There is midi external output rack for every imported style to be made : i made now one rack for this style : Chart Piano shuffle 
Can now more try out for this style quick with the multi record feature 

Sidenote: it snowing here and we get polar air from Siberia and some little blizzards are arising.

 

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Still not convincing the midi style import in Synfire via mulitrack recording from arranger keyboard 
I think the only way to get the styles from the arranger sounding the same is to record these in Synfire 
 

I recorded a  style in DAW cakewalk and succeed to get a first style sounding well, but after a second recording  i get the style not good recorded anymore. 
But Synfire has not the midi inbuilt for recording ? 

I think it goes quick to multi trackrecording in arranger to midi for styles , but more quicker is to import the style direct 
Sound to choose from vst , because the style sounds quality are the best on the arranger itself driven by the accompaniment engine
That's it for the sx600 styles suitable for Synfire.. 

 

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