Posted
Hi there,
i am trying to import a very long progression, basically its a repetitive figure, and every 4 bars it modulates a step around the circle of 5ths, so, essentially it would go something like this Asus4, Asus2, Am, repeat another 3 times, modulate to Eminor, so Esus4, Esus2, Em, repeat another 3 times and modulate to Bminor so Bsus4, B sus2 Bm etc etc.
I can't inmport the Midi file as Synfire seems to get stuck when i am doing so.
importing as static pitch doesn't seem to work, it changes all the notes around.
So then I tried building it as a progression but for some reason it keeps crashing Synfire when i get part way through. It seems to be around when I get part eway through.
Can anyone give me any ideas? I deally i would like Synfire to import the chords and work out the progression from them but it seems to be causing more than a few problems!
Wed, 2009-02-25 - 21:38 Permalink
Edit:
Got it in as static pitch, I wasn't selecting using the blue line at the top of the time line, I forget sometimes thats how you select stuff in Synfire!
Ok, so thats fine but how do i then get the progression out of it? it should read it quite easily as it's just chords.
I can't type in the progression as it's crashing Synfire, and all the way around the circle of 5ths is quite time consuming. ihave already spent 2 hours or so just trying to get Synfire to play back some simple block chords!!
If I am missing something quick and easy shoot me please (but also let me know what I am doing wrong!)
Wed, 2009-02-25 - 21:58 Permalink
It crashes??? It shouldn't. What went wrong?
[quote]how do i then get the progression out of it?
Open the harmonizer on the static pitches in the arrangement. Note that Synfire will probably not automatically recognize that you are going clockwise through the circle of fifths.
Where did you get the chords from? I'm just curious.
Andre
BTW @andyhox: You can split it into pieces in Synfire too. Create new containers, make snapshots and open the harmonizer on each individually.
Wed, 2009-02-25 - 22:04 Permalink
I guess this is a perfect time for me to ask my question since it sort of fits into the mix.
I was curious if the settings in the harmonizer has any effect on figure recognition inside Synfire?
Example being, import a file and don't create any figures...you (or it) selects the global key and creates a guess for the harmony parameter. Say you clear this and anything in the "harmonize phrases" analysis. If you want to recognize figures from parts of the take, what is the frame of reference for the recognition at this point, or does it have to be set somewhere? ..and where would you set it, since you aren't importing the MIDI file again and doing the key selection bit?
Wed, 2009-02-25 - 22:33 Permalink
HI Andre,
The chords were from Synfire originally, not imported from another piece of music.
I figured it would be quite fun as it's constantly modulating, so you have a sense of movement but it also seems not quite harmonius as it doesn't 'work' in the fashion of a normal progression.
So what i did was to step record into Live each chord (I know what a long way of doing it but I couldn't figure how to get Synfire to copy the chord played as it is in the palette to a figure at the time. . .)
I have tried splitting into smaller pieces but it's still having problems.
I have submitted a few crash reports this evening :)
So, from my progression it's fine for the first 5 bars but when I change key from Am to Em the chords are not sounding as they are when I play them from the palette.
They seem to be higher, even though I have copied and pasted from the progression. . . Any idea why that may be? I have changed the relation function in the harmony / progresion editor to the same key as they currently used key - that didnt seem to make any difference (to be honest that was just a wild shot in the dark though).
Cheers
Wed, 2009-02-25 - 22:41 Permalink
@keith: Ah, interesting question :-)
You can always start a new harmonic analysis from scratch, based solely on the takes you have (you may select muliple instruments for harmonization, btw). Actually this is what Synfire does after reading a midi file. The more material you have, the better.
The settings of the harmonizer have no influence on the automated import procedure. IIRC, they are kept for each instrument in your song, though. The "batch" analysis uses default, auto-detected parameters. If you want to have more influence on the result, it makes sense to skip figure recognition and do the harmonic analysis on all tracks manually (= instruments, select all tonal ones).
The subsequent figure recognition in the container/arrangement uses the current Harmony parameter as a reference, but it does not rely on it.
Andre
Wed, 2009-02-25 - 22:43 Permalink
Can anyone give me any ideas? I deally i would like Synfire to import the chords and work out the progression from them
Hi TWINSTATES, one thing I have found is that if you have an empty figure (no take data either) and set interpretation to "Auto-chords" you can right click on "Take" and select "Extract from output".
Synfire seems to extract into the "Take" the chords as generated from the progression. I think that would be much easier than creating them in Live or entering them in the phrase editor. :) Then just run figure analysis using chords mode on it from there.
Wed, 2009-02-25 - 22:49 Permalink
@keith: Great! ha! You're even quicker than me. I didn't think of this straightforward possibility. Sure, that's it. I completely forgot about the "Output" extraction. It saves the physical output of a phrase back to its Take parameter. Sort of recycling. One can do interesting things with it.
Wed, 2009-02-25 - 22:51 Permalink
The subsequent figure recognition in the container/arrangement uses the current Harmony parameter as a reference, but it does not rely on it.
Thanks that makes a lot more sense now and my suspicions were correct. :)
That said.. setting the global key in the harmonizer has the same net effect of selecting it at the beginning of the import procedure?
Wed, 2009-02-25 - 22:54 Permalink
@keith: Great! ha! You're even quicker than me. I didn't think of this straightforward possibility. Sure, that's it. I completely forgot about the "Output" extraction. It saves the physical output of a phrase back to its Take parameter. Sort of recycling. One can do interesting things with it.
I remember seeing that in the manual and briefly played with it. :) I'm trying to fully wrap my brains around this program because it is really the only thing in its league. Way better than a standard sequencer thats for sure. :)
I did wonder about how chords will sound quite different (even with the above procedure, than when playing them from the palette or Harmony bar. I'm sure there is a simple reason for it and a way to influence it?
Wed, 2009-02-25 - 22:54 Permalink
[quote="keith_phillips"]That said.. setting the global key in the harmonizer has the same net effect of selecting it at the beginning of the import procedure?
Yes. It's the global key assumption, sort of a serving suggestion. When in doubt, Synfire will prefer chords and cadences that are typical for that key.
Wed, 2009-02-25 - 23:02 Permalink
I might have jumped too quickly,
it's certainly closer however there is a slight difference oin the chord voicing in that some of the notes of each chord are played lower when playing back from the palette as opposed to using the auto chords to figure function that Keith descibed.
Its certainly better but not the same.
I guess this is one for Andre, how can I get Synfire to play back each chord *exactly* as it sounds i when i play through the progression?
Thanks for the help so far :)
Wed, 2009-02-25 - 23:12 Permalink
I guess this is one for Andre, how can I get Synfire to play back each chord *exactly* as it sounds i when i play through the progression
Try these settings and see if it is better (and extract these settings into the take if you want).
Load interpretation preset: Auto-chords
...then go and edit a few things from the preset:
[Voice Leading] Strategy: bypass
[Form] Alignment: off
I think the main thing is for the pitch class alignment to be off under the "Form" tab (and Accompaniment is what generates the chords). Try playing with the voice leading if you have some issues, but I think bypass is a good place to start if you want the most "raw" notes into the take to work with?
Wed, 2009-02-25 - 23:13 Permalink
[quote]I guess this is one for Andre, how can I get Synfire to play back each chord *exactly* as it sounds i when i play through the progression?
Use the same sound and the same playing ranges. I would however expect that there will be still differences. Note that inversions are a very dynamic thing that depends on the previously played chords and the playing ranges of the instrument. The same chord is voiced differently depending on what you've played before.
If you want a clean carpet or pop pad, the Auto-Chords preset is best. If you want a four voice polyphonic part and control each line individually, make four instruments that use the same sound, sketch each voice (assign different ranges). Then merge them into one when you're done.
Andre
EDIT: The conversion of a progression to a figure is not loss-free (speaking in technical terms). That is, the green segments you get will not 100% reproduce what you've heard in the palette or progression editor. Only static pitch will do (but that's contrary to the prototyping idea).
Wed, 2009-02-25 - 23:40 Permalink
Hi Keith,
Thanks for the advice so far.
It's importing the chords but now playing them back in a much higher register for the first set of chords, slightly lower (an octave I am guessing - correct key for each) at the key change then an octave or so lower at the next key change etc.
This is such a simple thing I don't understand why it's so hard.
Synfire is obviously capable of doing this as it's playing back the progression when I press play in the progression editor but I cannot understand why it is so difficult to get it to play back that same progression as chords in the figure.
Wed, 2009-02-25 - 23:45 Permalink
Hi Andre,
I am not looking for any inversions or anyting like that.
Simply put I just want to play back the chords with the same voicing as those that I am hearing when I am creating the progression.
I would have thought as it's following the progression that I should only have to do this for a 4 bar segment then Synfire will prototype the rest of it for me without having to copy the whole progression to the figure. . .
Wed, 2009-02-25 - 23:53 Permalink
It's importing the chords but now playing them back in a much higher register for the first set of chords, slightly lower (an octave I am guessing - correct key for each) at the key change then an octave or so lower at the next key change etc.
You could select the chord blocks in the phrase editor and move them up or down 7 intervals or so, maybe they would sound how you want then? I am not sure if that is the optimal solution but I had to do that to a couple chords I had imported from something.
Thu, 2009-02-26 - 00:02 Permalink
Synfire is obviously capable of doing this as it's playing back the progression when I press play in the progression editor but I cannot understand why it is so difficult to get it to play back that same progression as chords in the figure.
If you paste Harmony to a figure, all chord segments are created in root position. That sounds different than the live-interpreted chords you heard when pressing the "TEST" buton in the progression editor (I guess that's what you refer to).
Use the "Auto-Chords" interpretation preset instead. That does exactly what Synfire did in the progression preview. You must also copy the progression into the Harmony parameter.
[quote]I would have thought as it's following the progression that I should only have to do this for a 4 bar segment then Synfire will prototype the rest of it for me without having to copy the whole progression to the figure. . .
You can even leav the figure emtpy. Auto-Chords only needs the progression.
Andre
Thu, 2009-02-26 - 00:23 Permalink
Ok So i don't have anything playing in the figure now,
using the autochords function as Andre suggested and it's close but the chord voicing is still not exactly the same, there's a note an octave below that's still missing. .
It's loads closer and I can work with that (actually might be a bit better as leaves a little more clarity as there is clearer separation,
Am I missing a setting still?
And, now that I have got that out of the way, how would I then go about inverting certain chords in the sequence?
(just when you thought it was all over!)
Thanks a lot to both of you :)
Thu, 2009-02-26 - 23:05 Permalink
Check the playing ranges of your sound. They should be the same as for the sound you heard in the progression editor. Synfire inverts chords so they fit into the range of the instrument.
If in doubt, do a "Instrument >> Adopt Properties from Sound", which copies the ranges as set in the Audio & MIDI Setup for the sound.
Inversion is easy: Do "Vector >> Invert Up/Down" for the segment in question.
Andre