Hello, just wanted to chime in with a few issues i've had. I am on synfire express 2.0.11b3, windows 10.
#1. First an most important would be the absence of the grid in different resolutions. In the Synfire 1 phrase editor you could long press the grid resolutions to display the grid, that is now missing and I cannot find it anywhere else. Also the ability to select compound resolutions is gone and ovbiously the ability to set the grid resolution to them.
#2. Dragging the window to to use Window's tiling system causes the icons to crowd together and the problem cannot be restored by dragging the window to full tiling size, this is not a big deal as I simply avoid doing this.
Hmm, mine seems to be constantly grayed out, with nothing selected or with notes selected, and since i dont have grid parameter, I'm gonna assume it's an Express thing.
The customizable Grid parameter outlet is a Pro feature. If there are any static grid settings you miss from v1, we can add them to the menu. If so, the ability to show the grid may also be useful and that can be added to the menu, too.
An arrange window should not be less wide than 1170 points, to accommodate all toolbar items. This limit was missing. I assume this will also changed Windows' behavior with respect to screen estate management.
The tool tip of the options menu next to the Grid parameter is incorrect. It displays options for rack modules (Exclude From Rack and Include With Rack).
Blue Phoenix YT video Synfire 1 demo no midi export. Is that still with Synfire 2 demo? Then we can not test drones and midi to DAW . In the forum search nothing on Demo and midi export. I can export (no warning) but can not find the midi file.
The midi file is 11 ch multi . Import only 1 and 2 . It is nice to see the chords in green. Bass in pink and melody in blue. It will extract Harmony from both ch. It is difficult to understand that the Harmony at 9 is Bm and at 11 G. Have to check that with melodyne or cubase if the chord track will show Bm and G in the scale Cm. Not sure is the RAW midi match the export from synfire.
Andre the piano track is out of key in Reaper. What is going on. Will try later with a more simple midi file. What I understand is that synfire is always in key. So a midi import key Cm will export to reaper in a midi file key Cm . It is not !!!!!!!!!!!!! May be some hidden setting? the start 1-5 is total off. hurting my ears.
You need to make sure your progression has the desired key assigned (use the "Estimate" button). Or before import, tick the box "Confirm Detected Key" on the import dialog.
Ok next try with simple piano midifile. Now it is in Cm key. But why do we need to transpose 12 before the export ? Compare in reaper the original and the synfire midi we notice that the orignal ( Human played ) file sounds nice . The AI Synfire sounds a bit strange. It can be used to play a Synth as overlay but a no no for replacement of the original.
But why do we need to transpose 12 before the export?
Import removes pitch information from the music. Output pitch depends on the playing range of the instrument you use to render a phrase. So if you use a string section, or a piano, a flute, or a guitar, you'll get different pitch ranges.
Solution: Edit the playing ranges of the instrument.
What is often misunderstood is that Synfire is not a tool for working on existing MIDI files. Import is a tool for creating new phrases. Synfire is a program for composing new music from phrases and parameters.
Since this confusion comes up so often, we should probably rename "Import" to something like "Phrase Training". What's worst, Import is what most new users seem to be trying first. Since this vague estimation algorithm can never be correct, even from a theoretical perspective, the import feature is truly a marketing nightmare. If we had business guys in suits here, they would press me to remove it altogether ;-)
1. The track in cubase is named chordtrack, and in this midi are a lot of chords and a melody on top But after Synfire decoding we see no green chords. Only pink (Bass) and blue vectors??? What Iám looking for is decoding a midi file and get green vectors (chords) blue for arp and melody and pink for the lower (Bass) . That is much better then looking at a RAW midifile .
2. Compare the Cubase chord track progression and the Synfire progression . Its is relaxed on the Cubase chordtrack. In Synfire we got a lot repetition Cm Cm Cm Cm . The start is the same with Csus2 . For the rest a can say it is in key for both AI but not matching.
Whatever midi file you import in Synfire ( except for drum= static) , it is always chanced by the musical AI of Synfire
You will never hear the original midi import file back in Synfire
decoding a midi file and get green vectors (chords) blue for arp and melody and pink for the lower (Bass) . That is much better then looking at a RAW midifile
Absolutely. Figure Recognition classifies the raw MIDI notes as such (the information is not in the MIDI file). But what actually belongs to a chord, an arp or a bass voice is extremely vague and requires a lot of guesswork.
Automatic recognition settings don't always get it right, so you need to try different settings, especially where the bass range is not separate but moves up and down a lot, like in this example.
Compare the Cubase chord track progression and the Synfire progression
The chords are not in the MIDI file. Synfire guesses them from the arps, bass, melodies. What's more, the MIDI notes are not in sync with time signature. Given that, the estimation is actually quite good.
By the way, you can remove repeated chords with Transform >> Remove Duplicates.
MIDI is a stupid "play only" piano roll without much meta data. Never expect MIDI files to contain or preserve anything but the raw notes.
That said, there actually is a bug with figure recognition that shows up here. It should not classify almost 90% of the notes as bass by default. Will check.
Tip: Import as static pitches and do figure recognition in the arrange window. This way you can try different settings. I've attached the importred track, which I split in two to separare the bass from the rest.
Thanks for all the info. Will load your file in the demo software. Also the split function seems to be great. So the Bass and Arp can be split into seperate tracks. But this is a Pro feature what I understand. Strange is that import of the piano midi file Ch1 Synfire will present the trumpet from the global rack (Engine default fluit3 ) . With the tool button I choose the Yamaha Grand .
Andre : I'am using the original midifile piano . The from ......piano midifile (that is the Exported midi file from synfire). Can you tell your figure Recognition Setting? Custom , Algoritm , .......... Tried them all but the AI will not generate your phrase.
What is the reason that you are splitting into Arp /melody and chords/Bass?
Is it to have two different instruments for further easy editing in Synfire . Or is it to have two midifiles exported to the Daw for further editing .
I have tried the Phrase splitting (Pro only) . You will get the pink, green, blue parts in seperate lanes. Nice when chords bass and arp are intens interleave each other. Then your manual split is not possible.
There seems to be an issue with the chord catalog selection. By default, there are three different versions of the chord catalog: Minimal, Standard and Extended. But when selecting with File >> New >> Minimal/Standard/Extended, always the Extended list remains.
Nice to see that the above issue with the catalog was solved with v2.0.12. But here is another one: When double clicking on a chord at the "Rotation/Modes" section it chrashes. With Synfire 1, a double-click opened a suitable palette.
When double-clicking on a chord in the main chords list, this also no longer works (but at least no crash happens there). Has this functionality been removed on purpose?
I decide to start reading and editing the Synfire 1 manual . Normal I'am not reading manuals ( Ableton, Cybase , Studio One , Reaper ) . But the design of the software Synfire is so complex that 20 videos on YT where not explaining the basic. The first 30 pages of the old Synfire 1 manual will explain a lot more. Special the relative pitch, instruments , sounds and ranges. THIS WILL EFFECT THE MIDI OUTPUT for use in the DAW. !!!!!!! Will continue reading and then play with Synfire.
Thanks for the crash report. Yes, double-click on a chord has been removed on purpose. It doesn't make much sense to open a platte on a chord. So, if you wanted to do that, you must create a horizontal scale that uses the desired intervals first.
Regarding the user manual, you should read the one for version 2. Although the web pages are not linked by page numbers, you can browse them on the left sidebar, chapter by chapter.
1 )The online manual is too short and with all the links in the text in blue you are jumping around.
2) And I edit your Synfire 1 PDF.
On page 53 : In order to obtain a realistic preview when you play within palettes, you can search for a container and create a real-time sketch from it by using Container >> Make Sketch, which will then immediately be set up as global working sketch.
I think what is a Sketch ? Normal do a Google or YT search. But now your online manual will have the answer :A Sketch renders a short passage of music in real-time. OK but the rest is advanced and may be for later. Will continue
Cognitone seems to me it would be better to work with a diagram (picture) to explain how their software works
- synfire works with phrases in a library
- construction phrases in what ways?
- make a sketch
etc
A practical approach without all the definitions as done in the manual
II think learning some software simply by playing around with the user interface controls can work for software that either has very few controls or when one already knows the underlying idea.
> THIS WILL EFFECT THE MIDI OUTPUT for use in the DAW. !
Exactly, the whole idea of Synfire is to take care automatically of much of the pitch details. There are various controls, however, that impact that decision (e.g., chords, the shape of figures, their symbols, the pitch range of instruments etc.) and understanding these concepts by reading the manual indeed helps to get much more out of Synfire, I feel. ;-)
Anyway, there are so many changes in Synfire 2 that it is indeed better to read the manual for that version -- which is also embedded into the software itself for interactive studying.
Sun, 2022-10-30 - 02:23 Permalink
Hello, just wanted to chime in with a few issues i've had. I am on synfire express 2.0.11b3, windows 10.
#1. First an most important would be the absence of the grid in different resolutions. In the Synfire 1 phrase editor you could long press the grid resolutions to display the grid, that is now missing and I cannot find it anywhere else. Also the ability to select compound resolutions is gone and ovbiously the ability to set the grid resolution to them.
#2. Dragging the window to to use Window's tiling system causes the icons to crowd together and the problem cannot be restored by dragging the window to full tiling size, this is not a big deal as I simply avoid doing this.
Sun, 2022-10-30 - 02:37 Permalink
Are you looking for this?
But I don't understand the green circle grid box left to it. If I apply a template, nothing changed.
Sun, 2022-10-30 - 06:53 Permalink
Hmm, mine seems to be constantly grayed out, with nothing selected or with notes selected, and since i dont have grid parameter, I'm gonna assume it's an Express thing.
Sun, 2022-10-30 - 10:34 Permalink
The customizable Grid parameter outlet is a Pro feature. If there are any static grid settings you miss from v1, we can add them to the menu. If so, the ability to show the grid may also be useful and that can be added to the menu, too.
An arrange window should not be less wide than 1170 points, to accommodate all toolbar items. This limit was missing. I assume this will also changed Windows' behavior with respect to screen estate management.
Sun, 2022-10-30 - 11:12 Permalink
The tool tip of the options menu next to the Grid parameter is incorrect. It displays options for rack modules (Exclude From Rack and Include With Rack).
Sun, 2022-10-30 - 19:02 Permalink
Yes, thank you for that, I use he grid quite extensively.
Wed, 2022-11-02 - 16:03 Permalink
Andre, you are online so,
Blue Phoenix YT video Synfire 1 demo no midi export. Is that still with Synfire 2 demo? Then we can not test drones and midi to DAW . In the forum search nothing on Demo and midi export. I can export (no warning) but can not find the midi file.
Wed, 2022-11-02 - 17:24 Permalink
Solved. It will not ask for the folder. So was looking in the source folder imported midi. But it is the user/documents/synfire in preferences.
The top two midi tracks in reaper are from synfire , track 3 and 4 are the imported midi files
Wed, 2022-11-02 - 18:15 Permalink
The midi file is 11 ch multi . Import only 1 and 2 . It is nice to see the chords in green. Bass in pink and melody in blue. It will extract Harmony from both ch. It is difficult to understand that the Harmony at 9 is Bm and at 11 G. Have to check that with melodyne or cubase if the chord track will show Bm and G in the scale Cm. Not sure is the RAW midi match the export from synfire.
Wed, 2022-11-02 - 19:09 Permalink
Andre the piano track is out of key in Reaper. What is going on. Will try later with a more simple midi file. What I understand is that synfire is always in key. So a midi import key Cm will export to reaper in a midi file key Cm . It is not !!!!!!!!!!!!! May be some hidden setting? the start 1-5 is total off. hurting my ears.
Wed, 2022-11-02 - 21:05 Permalink
You need to make sure your progression has the desired key assigned (use the "Estimate" button). Or before import, tick the box "Confirm Detected Key" on the import dialog.
Thu, 2022-11-03 - 10:45 Permalink
No it is not key Cm. The piano is F# and modulate to nearby key. So too complex midifile. Will continue with a more simple midi file and let you know
Thu, 2022-11-03 - 15:53 Permalink
Ok next try with simple piano midifile. Now it is in Cm key. But why do we need to transpose 12 before the export ? Compare in reaper the original and the synfire midi we notice that the orignal ( Human played ) file sounds nice . The AI Synfire sounds a bit strange. It can be used to play a Synth as overlay but a no no for replacement of the original.
Thu, 2022-11-03 - 16:29 Permalink
Import removes pitch information from the music. Output pitch depends on the playing range of the instrument you use to render a phrase. So if you use a string section, or a piano, a flute, or a guitar, you'll get different pitch ranges.
Solution: Edit the playing ranges of the instrument.
What is often misunderstood is that Synfire is not a tool for working on existing MIDI files. Import is a tool for creating new phrases. Synfire is a program for composing new music from phrases and parameters.
Since this confusion comes up so often, we should probably rename "Import" to something like "Phrase Training". What's worst, Import is what most new users seem to be trying first. Since this vague estimation algorithm can never be correct, even from a theoretical perspective, the import feature is truly a marketing nightmare. If we had business guys in suits here, they would press me to remove it altogether ;-)
Thu, 2022-11-03 - 16:42 Permalink
Amdre Questions:
1. The track in cubase is named chordtrack, and in this midi are a lot of chords and a melody on top But after Synfire decoding we see no green chords. Only pink (Bass) and blue vectors??? What Iám looking for is decoding a midi file and get green vectors (chords) blue for arp and melody and pink for the lower (Bass) . That is much better then looking at a RAW midifile .
2. Compare the Cubase chord track progression and the Synfire progression . Its is relaxed on the Cubase chordtrack. In Synfire we got a lot repetition Cm Cm Cm Cm . The start is the same with Csus2 . For the rest a can say it is in key for both AI but not matching.
Thu, 2022-11-03 - 16:54 Permalink
Whatever midi file you import in Synfire ( except for drum= static) , it is always chanced by the musical AI of Synfire
You will never hear the original midi import file back in Synfire
Thu, 2022-11-03 - 17:19 Permalink
Absolutely. Figure Recognition classifies the raw MIDI notes as such (the information is not in the MIDI file). But what actually belongs to a chord, an arp or a bass voice is extremely vague and requires a lot of guesswork.
Automatic recognition settings don't always get it right, so you need to try different settings, especially where the bass range is not separate but moves up and down a lot, like in this example.
The chords are not in the MIDI file. Synfire guesses them from the arps, bass, melodies. What's more, the MIDI notes are not in sync with time signature. Given that, the estimation is actually quite good.
By the way, you can remove repeated chords with Transform >> Remove Duplicates.
MIDI is a stupid "play only" piano roll without much meta data. Never expect MIDI files to contain or preserve anything but the raw notes.
That said, there actually is a bug with figure recognition that shows up here. It should not classify almost 90% of the notes as bass by default. Will check.
Tip: Import as static pitches and do figure recognition in the arrange window. This way you can try different settings. I've attached the importred track, which I split in two to separare the bass from the rest.
Thu, 2022-11-03 - 17:48 Permalink
Thanks for all the info. Will load your file in the demo software. Also the split function seems to be great. So the Bass and Arp can be split into seperate tracks. But this is a Pro feature what I understand. Strange is that import of the piano midi file Ch1 Synfire will present the trumpet from the global rack (Engine default fluit3 ) . With the tool button I choose the Yamaha Grand .
Thu, 2022-11-03 - 20:39 Permalink
Actually the track seems to be for guitar.
I did the split manually: Duplicate track, then delete symbols with the lasso.
Thu, 2022-11-03 - 23:32 Permalink
Andre : I'am using the original midifile piano . The from ......piano midifile (that is the Exported midi file from synfire). Can you tell your figure Recognition Setting? Custom , Algoritm , .......... Tried them all but the AI will not generate your phrase.
What is the reason that you are splitting into Arp /melody and chords/Bass?
Is it to have two different instruments for further easy editing in Synfire . Or is it to have two midifiles exported to the Daw for further editing .
I have tried the Phrase splitting (Pro only) . You will get the pink, green, blue parts in seperate lanes. Nice when chords bass and arp are intens interleave each other. Then your manual split is not possible.
Fri, 2022-11-04 - 16:00 Permalink
I did the split only to simplify figure recognition. The settings should be kept in the arrangement file.
You can Cut the second phrase and Edit >> Paste And Merge into the first, if you want a single phrase for export.
Sat, 2022-11-05 - 18:52 Permalink
Thanks . Is phrase merge only in pro? Will try myself set the demo software to Express and see is merge is available .
Edit: In your post is the answer. The merge is the Cut and Paste procedure
Sun, 2022-11-06 - 00:37 Permalink
There seems to be an issue with the chord catalog selection. By default, there are three different versions of the chord catalog: Minimal, Standard and Extended. But when selecting with File >> New >> Minimal/Standard/Extended, always the Extended list remains.
Sun, 2022-11-06 - 11:39 Permalink
I can confirm that there are no differences between results of these three new catalog settings it seems.
Mon, 2022-11-07 - 10:56 Permalink
Nice to see that the above issue with the catalog was solved with v2.0.12. But here is another one: When double clicking on a chord at the "Rotation/Modes" section it chrashes. With Synfire 1, a double-click opened a suitable palette.
When double-clicking on a chord in the main chords list, this also no longer works (but at least no crash happens there). Has this functionality been removed on purpose?
Mon, 2022-11-07 - 18:09 Permalink
After watching a new Synfire YT video
I decide to start reading and editing the Synfire 1 manual . Normal I'am not reading manuals ( Ableton, Cybase , Studio One , Reaper ) . But the design of the software Synfire is so complex that 20 videos on YT where not explaining the basic. The first 30 pages of the old Synfire 1 manual will explain a lot more. Special the relative pitch, instruments , sounds and ranges. THIS WILL EFFECT THE MIDI OUTPUT for use in the DAW. !!!!!!! Will continue reading and then play with Synfire.
Mon, 2022-11-07 - 19:24 Permalink
Thanks for the crash report. Yes, double-click on a chord has been removed on purpose. It doesn't make much sense to open a platte on a chord. So, if you wanted to do that, you must create a horizontal scale that uses the desired intervals first.
Regarding the user manual, you should read the one for version 2. Although the web pages are not linked by page numbers, you can browse them on the left sidebar, chapter by chapter.
Mon, 2022-11-07 - 22:53 Permalink
Andre
1 )The online manual is too short and with all the links in the text in blue you are jumping around.
2) And I edit your Synfire 1 PDF.
On page 53 : In order to obtain a realistic preview when you play within palettes, you can search for a container and create a real-time sketch from it by using Container >> Make Sketch, which will then immediately be set up as global working sketch.
I think what is a Sketch ? Normal do a Google or YT search. But now your online manual will have the answer :A Sketch renders a short passage of music in real-time. OK but the rest is advanced and may be for later. Will continue
Mon, 2022-11-07 - 23:30 Permalink
Cognitone seems to me it would be better to work with a diagram (picture) to explain how their software works
- synfire works with phrases in a library
- construction phrases in what ways?
- make a sketch
etc
A practical approach without all the definitions as done in the manual
Tue, 2022-11-08 - 09:11 Permalink
> Normal I'am not reading manuals
II think learning some software simply by playing around with the user interface controls can work for software that either has very few controls or when one already knows the underlying idea.
> THIS WILL EFFECT THE MIDI OUTPUT for use in the DAW. !
Exactly, the whole idea of Synfire is to take care automatically of much of the pitch details. There are various controls, however, that impact that decision (e.g., chords, the shape of figures, their symbols, the pitch range of instruments etc.) and understanding these concepts by reading the manual indeed helps to get much more out of Synfire, I feel. ;-)
Anyway, there are so many changes in Synfire 2 that it is indeed better to read the manual for that version -- which is also embedded into the software itself for interactive studying.