Posted
HAIion 4 offers a lot of modern pop sounds with articulations.. imagine if you could use these sounds in Synfire Express !
Synfire Express is aimed as a mainstream studio composer, but fails right now to use/deliver the soundquality what is offered by HAIlion 4.
So i propose that there comes a improvement for Synfire Express in the near future to overcome this creativic/artistic limitation.
Enclosed a Cubase 6.5 screenshot of the articulation system in the key editor used there.
Seems to me a better system than rigt now is offered in Synfire Pro?
I like to see a articulation system for a limited number of articulated sounds in Synfire Express ( to express myself more ;) )
Right now , Synfire Express is too simple to go wild with the modern articulated pop music sounds and use only standard sounds
I hope on a real fantastic improvement in the near future to bring Synfire Express to a new maximum level of musical expression for modern articulated sounds
Come on...for the real saxes and screaming guitars..
Wed, 2013-02-06 - 17:43 Permalink
Yes i did tried to get it working using the 8 custom controls with HAilion 4..but no positive result so far.
The custom control has a value of Synfire Express 0..127 ( and it must trigger the keyswitch).
I put the 3 faders on the cc number values ( 20, 21, 22 ..to try some articulations ) in Synfire
I made a test setup for the sax..with straight, vibrato an growl vibrato ( 3 articulations )
In the custom controller screen ..i did a test and de "default value" is the controller number + 1
On this way i get the right cc number assigned to HALion 4 in the "remote keyswitch module" for the 3 articulated sounds (straight, vibrato, growl)
You must realize how keyswitched sounds are used with a controller--> is this a live recording?
I like to assign my articulation in the phrase editor after recording of the phrase..this same workflow is be used in Cubase 6.5 too .
I draw the 3 vectors for the articulations on the symbol positions for 3 (test) controls : straight, vibrato and growl
vibrato.
There were no overlapping vectors ( articulation )
On this way it looks like in Cubase 6.5 workflow !..but there where no keyswitches ( chance of sound in the phrase ) during the testplay.
The drawn vector value must trigger the keyswitch, but that is not the case now.
I don't have right now a clear picture how it must should setup for keyswitching.
Wed, 2013-02-06 - 17:46 Permalink
You might need to do some sort of midi learn? Also not sure where the midi data will end up being displayed In cubase.
I don't have cubase so can't help with that, but in ableton you also can have automation lanes which look like your picture of cubase. However the control data end up b.eing added to the midi for the track in ableton and its only visible looking at the midi clip envelopes, abLeton does not create an automation lane.
Wed, 2013-02-06 - 19:11 Permalink
Yes i applied "midi learn" in HALion 4 and the test in custom controller screen in Synfire Express shows that a value is assigned to remote keyswitch midi module in HALion4.
The controller in Symfire can add a value between 0 ..127 and this can be drawn as a vecor , but it selects not a particulair key ( keyboard in HALion) whereunder a articulated sound is placed.
So you must look at the keyswitching practice :
- live( choose the articulation and record). (1)
- or in the phraseeditor ( first record the main sound (symbol) and afterwards add the articulation. (2)
Wed, 2013-02-06 - 19:12 Permalink
Thanks!
Yes , that is the fundamental working where i was looking for ...ofcourse note on /off
Must also than now figure out if it possible to get a note message out of HALion4 ( There are some midi modules ..).
A note to CC translator plugin what reacts on the Synfire fader.. woow.
Suppose this is working how to add the articulation exactly in the phrase symbol positions ( next question )
Wed, 2013-02-06 - 23:19 Permalink
I think this works by assigning a specific note value to a specific CC and vice versa. I think these plugins are one or the otehr, i.e., note to CC or CC to note. Hopefully they will permit multiple note and CC assignments within a single plug in. You should easily be able to send a CC message from Synfie to Cubase to trigger the CC to Note plugin hosted in Cubase in the Halion path.
Presumably Cubase would also host the Note to CC plugin in the path of you controller output so you could record that CC value back into Synfire and have things working both ways.
Thu, 2013-02-07 - 00:28 Permalink
i did not find a plugin yet to get it working in Synfire
You should easily be able to send a CC message from Synfie to Cubase to trigger the CC to Note plugin hosted in Cubase in the Halion path.
I do want use HALion 4 directly in Synfire audio engine
With Cubase together is another setup.
What setup do you have in mind ?
FREE MIDI CC to MIDI Note Converter
Here’s a multiscript for KONTAKT 4 that can trigger keys–and keyswitches–via MIDI CCs. That way instead of having to hold down cumbersome keyswitches while you play, you can just use MIDI CCs instead.
Basically, you can take a CC #, like 1 (mod wheel), and then select the destination channel (including options of all channels at once, or route it directly from whichever MIDI channel the CC data is coming from to the same output MIDI channel). Then you can select which key you want it to hold, while the MIDI CC # is over half-way up. When the MIDI CC # is back down, it’ll release the note.
Thu, 2013-02-07 - 04:13 Permalink
From your comments I realise what the picture shows, it isn't controller lanes bu rather key switches. That is easy to fix but not cheap. Upgrade to synfire pro, that has support for articulations via key switches, you define them in the device definition, per instruments, per specific instrument instance or per patch.
Thu, 2013-02-07 - 10:25 Permalink
Synfire express is positioned as a mainstream composer by Cognitone.
Why not make Synfire E suitable for lively midi modern pop arrangements ?
Well HALion 4 has enough not classical articulated sounds for arranging with popmusic
So my idea is that Synfire Express get a upgrade to exploit the modern articulated sounds what HALion 4 has to offer.
I like to apply keyswitching in the phrase editor ( like Cubase 6.5 has to offer) in a maybe more usefriendly way that Synfire Pro has now to offer
Example : see the name of the articulation applied too ..well it is the same as in Cubase to shortcut this ..that's clear..or perhaps this can also be improved further ?
Thu, 2013-02-07 - 10:26 Permalink
The setup I was talking about was the one I use: private device out from Synfire to Cubase with Cubase hosting plugins or routing to sound modules.
Yes drones routing or Midi modules ( hardware ) routing, but your workflow for the articulation and a cc converter seems to be not that easy
see https://users.cognitone.com/content/using-expressionmap-synfire-express-cubase-only
Thu, 2013-02-07 - 12:31 Permalink
Personally I think using key switches is 'old technology'. Most software and hardware synths, plus every daw, supports controller mapping via midi cc, a few are even more upto date and use Osc.
However, the articulation support in synfire pro is pretty good given that there's is no standard for this. Every instrument that uses keyswitches tends to name the 'effects' differently and use different keys to those used for the same effect on a different synth. For that reason currently keyswitches do not translate well between different instruments.
Cognitone did start an discussion with its customers to come up with a standard naming convention so that you could swap out instruments in a synfire project and have the keyswitches automatically remap, but I'm not sure how far they got with this.
Unfortunately for you, they only include controller mapping of 8 controls and no key switch articulations in synfire express.
One thing you could try although its a bit messy, is to include a second instrument that maps to the same channel as the main one and put the notes to fire the keyswitches on the second track as static pitches.