Conversion from static symbols to dynamic symbols for correcting track

60 posts / 0 new
Last post
janamdo's picture
janamdo
Offline
Last seen 3 weeks 4 days ago

Conversion from static symbols to dynamic symbols for correcting track

With the issue of a imported midi with a weak (ruined) converted accordion sound track compared with the original midi ( static ), there is a need of converting a static symbol to a dynamic symbol for getting back the original accordion symbols in the imported midi track.

In the case of the accordion there was only one symboltype, but suppose there are mixed symboltypes for a static track
How to get from a static symbol track a mixed dynamic symbol track back for copy and paste in the imported midi ?

Is it not possible to show a symboltype one for one  in the phrase, so i could copy and paste one symboltype after a another back in the imported midi from the static midi.    

 

blacksun's picture
blacksun
Offline
Last seen 2 days 19 hours ago

As the imported midi should be in the take parameter as per the file and you can later change how you want that to be interpreted, I would like to offer a slightly different suggestion..

 

have the option to select certain phrases/notes in the take and then when choosing how to interpret the take have it only work on the selected notes. If nothing is selected then it interprets the whole take.

that way you could select say the bass notes and have them interpret as Abbas, the select chords and have them interpret as chords...etc.

this would save the copy and paste to different tracks that janamdo had to do to recreate his lively accordion playing.

 

janamdo's picture
janamdo
Offline
Last seen 3 weeks 4 days ago

Yes, if your idea can reduce the workflow what i have done for the accordion than i am happy with this
But you must also make first a comparison between the two midi files (static and imported) , to decide if there is a track not sounding well. 

Doing this is done by open two arrangements at the same time in Synfire.. can this not be done with opening of one arrangement ?
Why not loading the two midi fles (static and imported) in the same importscreen for comparing them as a sort of rehearsal.
Staying in one arrangement.. 

janamdo's picture
janamdo
Offline
Last seen 3 weeks 4 days ago

But do you think Cognitone will support this, if there are convinced that a imported midi file has enough quality on all tracks compared with a static midi file? 

 

blacksun's picture
blacksun
Offline
Last seen 2 days 19 hours ago

Janamdo you can import as static then try out the different interpretations as it stands with the current version. On,y thing you can do is selectively change interpretation on a note by note basis, its for the whole sequence. Even if you don't use static import, you can change this you want to interpret the sequence at any time. Check out the take parameter and the options that operate on that parameter.

 

 

janamdo's picture
janamdo
Offline
Last seen 3 weeks 4 days ago

Hi Blacksun

In the case of the poor sounding accordion ..i must import the midi again ( after first have noticed the difference by opening two arrangements--> how to detect that in your workflow ?  ) and import static with dfferent interpretations--> than i must this compare again with a static track.

 

 

blacksun's picture
blacksun
Offline
Last seen 2 days 19 hours ago

Did you check out the take parameter? I thought this was the static file (track) as imported or played. When you change the interpretation on the take parameter it reprocessed the raw midi to come up with the figure using the newly selected interpretation. You can also import as static where the figure and take are the same ( device ranges allowing). At least that's been my experience.

janamdo's picture
janamdo
Offline
Last seen 3 weeks 4 days ago

Yes , good idea  to chance a unsatisfied sounding track on the way you describe 
I will test this again with the accordion midi ( open 2 arrangements , why not ..it is valid workflow ) 

janamdo's picture
janamdo
Offline
Last seen 3 weeks 4 days ago

I tried to rebuild the accordion take with 2 algorithms for a monophonic (melodic) with horizontal symbols ( blue) on the way you suggested and none of the options gives a improvement compared with the original static accordion.

So there is no other choice than copy and paste : copy the static tack into the imported track

Note: the fact that the default transormation algorithm gives a unacceptable result, you may not aspect that  another algorithm should give more improvement ..Synfire fails here complete it seems.


So i copied a static track into a transformed midi and the replaced track and the other remaining tracks are still under influence of the musical AI of Synfire --> or not ? 

Yes, all tracks(phrases) in the arrangement are now under control of the musical AI..so the new copied accordion track must sound balanced with the other tracks?

 

The bottom-line is: check always the original midi with a imported midi ( compare ) if you want to be satisfied with the phrase.

It is a enormous musical difference this corrected accordion track against the imported accordion track what was not   musical at all.  

blacksun's picture
blacksun
Offline
Last seen 2 days 19 hours ago

Is there any way you could make a video of this workflow? I fail to see the difference between selecting static for harmonizer for the accordion track and importing it across as static to a different file and copying then pasting it to the new arrangement presumably as static?

Boydbob's picture
Boydbob
Offline
Last seen 9 months 1 week ago

I tried this and it works:

Open the midi file in your DAW

Duplicate any tracks you might want to be static. Don't worry about  the midi channel being the same.

Name the duplicates  Bass-2,  Piano-2  etc.

Export as a multi-track midi file.

 

When you import it into Synfire, import all of the "**-2" tracks as static.

Mute tracks as needed till you are satisfied.

Clear or Remove whatever you don't need.

 

Boyd

Windows 10 - 64 bit - 16GB - RME Babyface - Focusrite Scarlet Solo

SynFire Pro - MixBus 5 

janamdo's picture
janamdo
Offline
Last seen 3 weeks 4 days ago

Yes, you exported a midi file from a DAW and imported this as a static midi file into Synfire..
Synfire acts now as a midiplayer. 

But your midi file must be imported as a "Synfire midi file" and processed by musical AI and during this process you can loss soundquality ( check this : the original midi and the imported midi in Synfire..compare them )

janamdo's picture
janamdo
Offline
Last seen 3 weeks 4 days ago

Blacksun.. i hope you will  get the idea now. ( and also for eduardo ..our minstrel from South America  :) )

I try to make a video..but zipped.. ( i cannot get licecap working on the forum) 

Is there any way you could make a video of this workflow? I fail to see the difference between selecting static for harmonizer for the accordion track and importing it across as static to a different file and copying then pasting it to the new arrangement presumably as static?

There is no need for harmonizing the static accordion track ... just make from the (static imported midi file )static accordion symbols (brown) --> blue symbols ( horizontal) and than copy the converted blue accordion track ( from the static imported arrangement(1)) into the imported midi wrong sounding accordion track arrangement (2)
Now is the bad sounding accordion track corrected (replaced with copy and paste )  

( you must open two arrangements for that : one with a static midi imported(1) and one with a imported midi(2) ) 

 

 

 

blacksun's picture
blacksun
Offline
Last seen 2 days 19 hours ago

Hi Janamdo,

I still dont understand why you are having to do the copy and paste. If you imported the file the same in both imports. I dont understand why you cant just import the track as static then select the notes and click the H button. Why would the same file imported with the same track as static produce different results when switching to the horizontal scale note type? Are you sure that the import parameters are the same in both cases as the figures look the same but with different durations? Im assuming that synfire express allows you to change the interpretation algorithem on a track by track basis like in the pro version?

janamdo's picture
janamdo
Offline
Last seen 3 weeks 4 days ago

Hi Blacksun
Yes, it works the same the figure recognition in Synfire Express as in Pro version ( perhaps there is a light version of figure recognition built in by Cognitone in Synfire Express  :D )

I import the midi and the accordion track sounds poor ( compared with the static one for the accordion )
what can i do than?

- look to the static import and normal imported and notice that the static phrase has a higher pitch position--> try to make the imported  phrase looks the same pitch --> no sound improvement 

-Via take ..reimport the Accordion track with another algorithm --> gives also no  improvement   

- Static Pitches are on all Tracks.. for import .. if i can get only the Accordion imported as static track than i can click the H button ( i did not try this solution, because i don't know how to do this  )
Ok,  i find it  and reimport the accordion as static again on the already imported accordion track and click on H symbols.. now i do have the same accordion track as with a copy and paste, BUT it sounds still not good
Yes, as you suggested it is possible to make a static import for one track, AFTER a already made import, but Synfire AI has chanced the track internal. 


The only solution is than to import the midi with the accordion track as static--> but that is not possible in Synfire to import static tracks .. per track ..or do i miss something 

A tickbox with static import for the tracks individual ? 
Still asking myself is this the solution? ...with Copy and paste i paste static track over a already processed imported accordion track, but with one track as static imported which is not possible yet, there is no processing by Synfire for that static track and than click on H must give the same result a Copy and Paste for the accordion track ? 

Cannot check this..if it is not possible to import a static track individual, but can you at forehand predict ..will this working like copy and paste for the accordion track ?

Prado's picture
Prado
Offline
Last seen 3 years 2 months ago

Jan,

 

I am also trying to understand this.

 

1. You seem to be saying that the static part of each track imported the normal way is not really static, but has been changed in some way by SFP/E import.

 

Yes or no?

 

2. You seem to be saying that if you import all the tracks from a file as static, that the static imported files are closer to, but not identical to the original.

 

Yes or no?

 

3. You seem to be saying that you have found a method  or work around to import a static file and retain the 'liveliness' of the original midi in a track.

 

Yes or no?

 

4. If you have found a method, please try again to simply explain how you accomplish this.

 

 

blacksun's picture
blacksun
Offline
Last seen 2 days 19 hours ago

When you import the file, in the box on the left where it lsts all the tracks. Click on each track and you can then select the type of interpretation for that track. Just select static for tat one track. When importing you can specify the quantitation action per track.

also you should be able to click on the take parameters for the accordion track and tell it in the inspector to change to staticI'm

janamdo's picture
janamdo
Offline
Last seen 3 weeks 4 days ago

Hi Prado

1-no

2 -no

3-yes

4- read..

Note: static import works normal ( 1 and 2 ) the sound is the same in a every midi player

It seems to difficult to explain, why i can don't get a musical result with Synfire Express for a imported midi with accordion
Although you don't have HALion5 General midi .. a bad result of the import midi  is also  hearable with other GM soundmodules

So import this midi and compare  the acordion track  with a static acordion track (open 2 arrangments for this )

yes..yes ?.. :)  

 

Ok, to corect the bad sounding accordion in the imported midi ..nothing works like Blacksun suggested ( i did not get it working, well at least i did not find it yet ?)
I open 2 arrangements and imported a static midi and a normal synfire import 
The normal Synfire import is sounding bad for the accordion, so i used the static import midi in one of the arrangements..make blue symbols(converted from static(brown) to blue horizontal symbol(dynamic ) from the static accordion track and copy and paste it on the same time position as the normal imported midi for the accordiontrack  ( i replaced the track with the copy track )

Now sounds the replaced accordion track in the imported synfire midi really good

 

juergen's picture
juergen
Offline
Last seen 1 year 10 months ago

That's what I got when I imported your MIDI file into Synfire. Is that result not ok for you?

I used the standard settings at the import (not static). I only changed the playing range of the accordion to the upper playing range after the import. 

Prado's picture
Prado
Offline
Last seen 3 years 2 months ago

OK ... I am starting to understand.

 

1. You are saying that if you import a midi track static and then later convert it to dynamic, it is different from the way SFP/E interprets/ converts it under normal import.

 

Yes or no?

 

2. And you are saying that the static import then dynamically converted is a more accurate version of the original midi file.

 

Yes or no?

 

I will try to test this. Assuming your finding is true, then it would suggest that we always import static and convert tracks one by one.

 

This is just a guess, but I wonder if the static to dynamic conversion, since the AI is not 'considering' the harmonic influence of other tracks as it may do on regular import, simply converts the static track exactly as it is.

 

 

Prado's picture
Prado
Offline
Last seen 3 years 2 months ago

I should add that I think that there has been previous discussion about whether it would be possible to prioritize specific tracks on import so that their harmonic content would predominate over other less harmonically important tracks.

Prado's picture
Prado
Offline
Last seen 3 years 2 months ago

Is that result not ok for you?

LOL! It's not OK for me. It sounds like the accordian is playiing half-time at a funeral while his band companions try to get people up dancing.

janamdo's picture
janamdo
Offline
Last seen 3 weeks 4 days ago

That's what I got when I imported your MIDI file into Synfire. Is that result not ok for you?

Yes i got the same result if i not correct this ..horrible sounding ..(compare this with the static accordion )
note: i installed the beta for synfire express and cannot bounce this midi to audio..to let you listen to the corrected midi

juergen's picture
juergen
Offline
Last seen 1 year 10 months ago

Yes i got the same result if i not correct this ..horrible

Of course, the figure (and probably also the chords) would need some manual correction, if you want get exactly the original. This is unavoidable. For this, the phrases are dynamic. 

 

janamdo's picture
janamdo
Offline
Last seen 3 weeks 4 days ago

OK ... I am starting to understand.

1 yes

2 yes

exactly as you asked it..

 

 

 

janamdo's picture
janamdo
Offline
Last seen 3 weeks 4 days ago

 

This is unavoidable. For this, the phrases are dynamic.

Yes Juergen, and how i corrected this (by accident ) do you think ?

- by making the static track a blue track and copy and paste this over the dynamic track for the accordion

Tell me ..how is the accordion now sounding ?

juergen's picture
juergen
Offline
Last seen 1 year 10 months ago

Yes, and how i corrected this ?

Personally, I have never tried to reconstruct exactly the original MIDI after the import. Why should I do that? After all, I want to use the phrases dynamically and therefore the pitches of them will change anyway when I use them in a composition. 

If you really want to correct the figure to get back exactly the pitches from the original you will need to do that manually in the phrase editor. But as I said: For me, it would make no sense. 

 

janamdo's picture
janamdo
Offline
Last seen 3 weeks 4 days ago

Do you think that the original midi is reconstructed..  by doing this what i have done ?

Personally, I have never tried to reconstruct exactly the original MIDI after the import  Why should I do that?

I don't understand it..because the ideal situation should be that Synfire sounds the same as a imported midi

But your point of view i understand : i doesn't matter how the imported midi sounds..afterwards i chance it
The problem is here can you correct this figure easily  like i have done by accident ?

A good sounding imported track can be used in a library ..

 

 

 

 

 

blacksun's picture
blacksun
Offline
Last seen 2 days 19 hours ago

JJanamdo why would you pay a lot of money for a midi player, especially if you already have a daw.

the beauty of synfire is that you can take some midi as inspiration and useing synfires magic, produce something that's both original and good. For me its the difference between playing cover songs or being inspired to create something original ( with a lot of help from synfire)

 

 

however I am still confused why you have to go through your workflow. Import the track as static the first time then select all the notes and click on the button to make them blue. The only thing I know of that will change the static notes away from the original are, quantisation on import or playing ranges causing the notes to be shifted pitch. Unless you've found something else or a bug?

 

Prado's picture
Prado
Offline
Last seen 3 years 2 months ago

Why should I do that? After all, I want to use the phrases dynamically and therefore the pitches of them will change anyway when I use them in a composition. 

 

Yes, but if you get melodically or harmonically richer/ superior phrases with with Jan's finding to use for the phrase pool, doesn't that suggest that this could be very useful?

 

Even with dynamc pitch changes the timing and voicing of the phrase seems like it will still be richer.

Prado's picture
Prado
Offline
Last seen 3 years 2 months ago

Why should I do that? After all, I want to use the phrases dynamically and therefore the pitches of them will change anyway when I use them in a composition. 

 

I think because he is saying that imiporting as static and then converting gives a different and in his view superior result. This all comes from his observation that the apparently most important line in a midi file he imported, the accordian, was changed almost unrecognizably.

 

I would prefer more complex phrases in the pool to then massage, than to have a bland, generic phrase arising out of what I originally found musically interesting.

 

This is all getting more and more interesting to me exactly because I've also been disappointed at the outcome of midi imported to SFP/ E.

 

So, no I don't want a simple midi player. I want an intelligent one that can take a rich and complicated phrase and be able to massage it in an editor and  then reharmonize it in the context of other instruments.

Pages

Log in or register to post comments

Scholarly Lite is a free theme, contributed to the Drupal Community by More than Themes.