Generators

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richardbartlett's picture
richardbartlett
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I downloaded a clasical midi zip from Kunst Der Fuge

 

I am not using batch import

 

i am choosing a particular compose, such as Elgar, and then importing files one at a time.  It is a laborious process over all but one I enjoy doing as I am building a world class set of libraries that I can use as musical references or set points of a composition.

When Synfire performs its magic ( I let it create figures , make most decisions) i then ,yes, painstakingly listen or scan for phrases that look interesting. Finding something of interest in a phrase, I solo it,  and then if I like or have a use for the phrase , i copy and drag it into a library dedicated to that composer. So each composer gets a new library. I then create and name files  ( within the new library ex. Elgar) after the specific composition or piece of music.

 

If the piece is long or has tons of useful phrases I will create files that are just for a particular instrument or instrument group. Ex. Beethoven (Library) Symphony 1 /Strings (file within the Beethoven library. While this is a laborious and time consuming way to do it ,I am creating content that is so rich and can be used in so many ways it is truly a delight!

 

The other thing is my musical ear is rather fussy and since I  have been able to afford it I have many 3rd party musical software libraries. Part of my creative process is to be able to hear the phrase with the best possible generated sounds. I assign my library files instruments from my global sounds rack. That way when I go to find a phrase it sounds inspiring. Then the fun really begins because with all these libraries you can mix and match phrases to your hearts content!  It's amazing what can happen when you give a viola phrase to a clarinet section!  What about a Beethoven flute phrase interpeted with my Arturia Moog Modular V  with perhaps a keyboard phrase from Ravel! You get the point, endless creative choices are available and practical right at the click of a mouse!

 

It's also fascinating and instructive to take the harmony parameter from something like a classic rock Yes tune and add phrases from Beethoven, Scriabin , etc With Synfire Pro almost any combination or choice will be musical and inspiring!

 

There is still a huge amount I have to learn and master about Synfire but I am challenged and delighted every day. With Synfire I will be composing and learning musical styles for the rest of my life!

 

 

shivaloca's picture
shivaloca
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Hi all

Richard Barlett :

* There is still a huge amount I have to learn and master about Synfire *

¥ Yes,we are all in the same situation,waiting with emotion Andre´s video tutorials promised about the different approach methods to compose with Synfire,he is the father and  knows better than anyone the secrets of his son because he educated him from birth

About importing midi files in synfire i prefer as Richard import them one by one because is more confortable by batch but in this way you can lose tracks because synfire sometimes does not detect one track that contains melodic & harmonic content,i don,t know the reason but it not detects and in bath format you can not chec the boxes import track & harmonic but with the method one by one you can chec them,is very laborious but more precise,you can choose the tracks you want to import

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Yes,we are all in the same situation,waiting with emotion Andre´s video tutorials promised about the different approach methods to compose with Synfire,he is the father and  knows better than anyone the secrets of his son because he educated him from birth

You should not worry so much about the "intended use" of Synfire. When a new software crosses my way, I never ask how the developer imagines the use of his software. I only look at the feature set of the software and ask myself, what can the software do for me, how and in what situations can I integrate it into my workflow? What are the strenghts and what are the weaknesses of the software? These questions I can only answer myself.  

 

HiEnergy's picture
HiEnergy
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While we're at the topic of generators and computer assisted composing:

Did anybody here use Obtiv Octava Tonsatz? German English

There's no demo package of the Tonsatz version available.

 

Andre: Sorry for mentioning another one of your business competitors.

shivaloca's picture
shivaloca
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Hi

Yes Juergen;excuse me;I made the mistake,the audacity of speaking on behalf of all

Lesson learned, from now speak for myself

The only thing I wanted to express, remember, was the promise of andre to making videos about different approaches to composition with synfire,these were his words, of course, he has no obligation to do so

We all have our own personalities and express them with our songs but anyone visiting this forum can perceive quickly that synfire is complicated ,of course,like everything in life is a personal challenge

I am very satisfied with having synfire,i feel privileged but I miss more tutorials video,is my own perception

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juergen
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Yes Juergen;excuse me;I made the mistake,the audacity of speaking on behalf of all

No, you don't have to excuse. You've got me wrong, sorry. I just wanted to encourage you and others to not only imitate the steps of the 'official' workflow videos. Composition is a creative process and you get the best results if you find your own individual way to use the software. 

 

Did anybody here use Obtiv Octava Tonsatz?

Yes, I have that too. It can generate multi-voice parts according to certain styles of composition. The styles are mostly traditional (i.e. Bach, Reger, romantic style, and so on). You can enter chords, voices and rhythms that you already have and the software composes the rest.  You can adjust the voice leading rules that should apply and you can enter the degree of dissonance you want to have at specific places of your composition (called "Dissonanzplanung", an interesting feature that I am missing a little in Synfire). Unfortunately the development of the software lately seems to drop off a little. And the prices, 500€ for the 10 voices-version (that I have) and 1000 € for the full version...hmm, well.... And, most of what can be done in Octava (except "Dissonanzplanung") can also be done in Pizzicato which meanwhile has similar features.

 

shivaloca's picture
shivaloca
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Hi

Thanks ;) absolutely agree with you

Returning to the main theme,it would be fantastic synfire open the doors to the generators option,a new colours added to our palette of painting

juergen's picture
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Andre: Sorry for mentioning another one of your business competitors.

Personally, I don't see the software products that are mentioned here as competitors to Synfire. On the contrary, all these tools complement each other, so it makes perfect sense, to have several of them. All the programs have their strength and weaknesses, what one tool can not do, maybe another one can. But what one can say with certainty is that Synfire is the strongest of all of them. It's the only one which I couldn't do without.

 

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Hello Duderanch...

Back to the original topic..... I am just testing the demo of Rapid Composer. It now also comes with a VSTi version of Rapid Composer which can be embedded in your DAW. I have also managed to install it into Synfire, which  means that I should be able to generate melodies and patterns from within Synfire......

 

However, before I spend too much time digging a hole for myself, has anyone else achieved this and have the results been good?

 

 

petearch's picture
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Ho Joe,

I'm not sure how RC could be used within Synfire because Synfire would have no figures to play.  I haven't tried it this way myself yet, but I'll try and give it a go soon.

Another way would be to use RC as a standalone or in your DAW (perhaps using a progression you already have in Synfire) and export the results to a MIDI file, which could then be imported into Synfire.  I think the RC demo allows you to record the MIDI inside your DAW, but I can't remember for sure.

Pete

duderanch's picture
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I have RC but find it very difficult to route inside SFP. its far easier to generate midi and import into SFP. 

markstyles's picture
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I too have been using RC..  I also use Band-in-a-box, and the style generators of Tyros 5.  sometimes I manually add/modify an imported MIDI line in Logic, simulating what SFP does (modifying the timing and notes of the imported phrase to fit the current song.. Since we all work in different ways. I see no problem.  

 

Also a lot of times as an exercise for myself.. I take what one of these programs do, and re-write or modify it more to suit my needs..I switch it up, cause as Andrew said, after enough listenings you can recognize the fact, something is machine generated. Many years ago I had to do a record project and come up with 16 songs in 3 weeks.. I used Band-in-a-box.  Imagine my suprise when I heard  some TV ads, that obvious used some of BIAB alogrhythms. 

 

Using these programs has helped my musicianship alot.. After 4 years of using Tyros (3 -5).  I understand much better of how to create an interesting part..  Before I just 'jammed', and refined a part... 

 

When you perform on an instrument yourself you might be creating (or you just might be jumping around modal scales  - conscious or unconscious of what you are doing).  When you are using some of the above programs, you are manipulating data..  So are you being 'creative' when you don't understand the underlying principles of music?

 

A few years back,  I was taking some Berklee on line music courses.  I went to their forums, to find a lyricist singer.

I sent her the music.. Imagine my shock, when 15 minutes later, she called me up and sang some lyrics with melody that was really good.. 

 

Later I took some of Pat Patterson's song writing courses (this man is brilliant).. He listens to songs, and can formulate 'tools' as he calls them to use in writing melody and lyrics..  It's about the 'power points' the balanced or unbalance of verses. The rhyme scheme.  The type of rhyme..  At first this is all totally overwhelming, but it gradually seeks in..

 

I would VERY MUCH like to see 'generators' in SFP.. Make it a 'beta'.  I think it will be a while before computers can make truly great sounding melodies everytime..  Besides that takes some of the fun out of it..  We go from creating to assembling music. 

 

markstyles

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Thanks for the input guys....

What I basically want is the ability to rapidly generate a series of motifs which have been strongly influenced by my input and then choose the best ones for further embelishment..

I recently rediscovered my old Jammer 6 which is very underated and has powerful melody and harmony generating capabilities (although it does not seem to be actively supported anymore..). This has a MFX version which allows it to sit within  DAWS that support MFX plug ins .. although sadly my prefered sequencer doesn't. But MFX is basically a VST that controls midi - not audio...   Going through this excercise is what prompted me to see if the Rapid Composer VST would be routable in Synfire.

I haven't investigated it yet but maybe it is possible with some rerouting using virtual midi cables ... interesting but time consuming....

However, it then begs the question .... wouldn't it be cool if Synfire sat inside your DAW............. No drones, latency problems, virtual cables .... etc......

 

I am sure that Andre has thought about this and there are good reasons for not doing it .... but it would be nice...

 

 

 

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However, it then begs the question .... wouldn't it be cool if Synfire sat inside your DAW............. No drones, latency problems, virtual cables .... etc...... 

I am sure that Andre has thought about this and there are good reasons for not doing it .... but it would be nice...

Yes, that would be fantastic!  I've never got round to trying drones yet, but it seems over-complicated to me.  I've managed to set up a template in Cubase to use RC in this way, but like you say, there must be a good reason that Synfire can't do it?

Pete

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I agree with you Janamdo.. We would be better off studying and learning theory, melody, harmony, counterpoint..  Of course it is a life long job.. But that's part of the fun.. Working with some of this new software, we can gain insight into the various aspects of music.. That's why I would like explanations, and transparency, so that the knowledge we gain can be applied on other instruments, in other software. etc. 

 

I used to work at a niteclub.. Every weekend, the DJ's would play their new 'productions'.. One finger tinkleing, or just pushing buttons, having no concept of pitch, harmony, etc.. Because they were Dj's, hopped up on the white snow, they thought they have created something brilliant.. I even heard a top dance club hit.. which was just a patch on the 10K Oasis kbd that came out about 10 years ago. 

 

I find that some of this artificial generated material, is more about 'happy accident's.. Rather than one methodically going about to get the desired results...

 

I came from the old school analog modular synths.. I had to understand the theory of sound, filters, ring modulators, harmonics, envelopes, cabling etc.. It really was listen, analyze, and duplicate.. It was a delicate balance of hardware needed to get the sound you wanted.. Using a whole large Moog system, just to make a drum sound. 

 

markstyles

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Yes Mark, Synfire is on this point.. a weak program: you cannnot apply fully the traditional musical knowledge.
It is fun to learn about music theory and try to apply this in your work
Therefore it should be also necessary that synfire can act as a DAW with lineair tracks as in Cubase for instance.
I like to see composing in Synfire on two ways :  Synfire native composing and traditional composing.
If this should be possible it becomes really interesting for musicians ..seems to me.
All that generator stuff is additional.

I agree with you Janamdo.. We would be better off studying and learning theory, melody, harmony, counterpoint..  Of course it is a life long job.. But that's part of the fun.. Working with some of this new software, we can gain insight into the various aspects of music.. That's why I would like explanations, and transparency, so that the knowledge we gain can be applied on other instruments, in other software. etc. 

duderanch's picture
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I just started using band in box 2014. Melody generation is much better than RC. Very robust phrases. 

 

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Yes, the sometimes battered and insulted BIAB can come up with some good melodies.. After a while, you will notice similarities sometimes..  I sometimes, regenerate certain sections for a new melody..  Or do a few passes of melody generation and import into Logic - then the fun begins, cutting/splicing/copying.. 

 

It is fast and painless.  The new super midi tracks are decent too.. The 2014 version has 54 new super midi tracks. I might update from last year just for that.. Although the GUI is cluttered (the new version is better).. I love it for it's straight aheadness, and simplicity to use. 

markstyles

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All these programs are tools to use, each has it's value.. Lately I've been taking melodies in Logic, running thru an arpeggiator or sequencer.. Using Melodyne to convert the audio into melody again.  Shifting a few notes to stay in key. l'm having a lot of fun with that.. It's simple, I understand it, and it's fast.. 

markstyles

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the Soloist in Biab is amazing. it floats around the melody. I also convert audio in Live sometimes in Melodyne looking for material. Using Ludwig 3 and sometimes capella fugata to get some midi ideas. we have great tools these days. 

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I have discovered a new trick in the ever ending quest for interesting solos.. I port a solo track to an instrument with a sequencer, or arpeggiator..  I record that as audio. I then use Melodyne, to convert to midi and clean up in Logic piano roll or score sequencer.. I've also discoverd, moving riffs back/forward in time can come up with brilliant riffs.. 

 

I've gotten to the point, where I know the scales by ear now, and can move notes to proper position without doing a sound check.. This is one other tool to help you create intesesting melodies.. 

 

Another method  use is put Logc in Cycle mute and record new tracks.. I just jam along with tracks a few times.. And come up with some interesting stuff (also junk).. I cut and paste a part together.. This is actually more fun, cause I am in control, and learning skill myself, not depending on software to do the heavy lifting (although there is nothing wrong with that, and often leads to great ideas.).. I almost always edit what Band-in-a-box does, RC, Synfire Pro, and my sequencer arpeggio.  . In this way, I feel I am learning and mastering my skills more.. 

 

All of these are tools, and pretty much any tool is valid in the creation of music.. 

Attachments: 

markstyles

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I have been using Neuratron Photoscore to convert jazz solos from pdf to midi. The better the pdf the better the midi. sometimes stunning results. here is a link to some great solos in pdf format. These Bob Berg solos are fantastic. 

http://pubcs.free.fr/BB/bob_berg_transcriptions.htm

also http://chnani.perso.neuf.fr/ejma/ejrelev.html

Photoscore is the only OCR that i have used. Here are a few pdf to midi conversions.

Entire Scores can be converted opening up tons more content for SFP. 

here are three bob berg solos.

markstyles's picture
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I've been meaning to try this out... I'll check out photoscore..  Do all of these require the OCR software to actually scan paper or can some of them scan pdfs, on your desktop..

 

I'm gonna look into it thanx..

markstyles

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I dont have a scanner. I only use pdfs i find on the net. seems to work good with quality pdfs.

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Synfire Pro now is able to transform the phrases adapting them harmonically but there are not generator phrases (melodies)

To me, Synfire has more to do with a 3D modeling software rather than with a 2D melody generator. i.e. one can give Synfire a “primitive” shape, for example eight bars of an orchestrated existing music, then harmonically manipulate it in real-time in a such great tool like Sketch, perhaps opening one, three or even ten different palettes and experimenting with the weirdest possible scales. In my opinion a melodic generator could be interesting but honestly I don’t feel it as the first to-do. I think that Synfire should evolve its holistic 3D capabilities of manipulating an existing material, although if on this I don’t have any suggestion for Andre, for now.

iMac Pro, Logic Pro, StudioOne 4, Synfire, Notion, NI Komplete, Heavyocity, various Spitfire/8Dio/VSL libs, Altiverb, a mate (Ines) and two cats (Oliva&Spritzi)

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Please Andre take not that for me (MacOS High Sierra) double clicking on a parameter box to open the related edit window doesn't work in Sketch mode.

iMac Pro, Logic Pro, StudioOne 4, Synfire, Notion, NI Komplete, Heavyocity, various Spitfire/8Dio/VSL libs, Altiverb, a mate (Ines) and two cats (Oliva&Spritzi)

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I am currently using demo's of Synfire Pro, Orb and have tried Rapid Composer, the latter seems to be for kids and DJ's which is a world away from what I wish to use this software for. 

madmanmoon's picture
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greetings,

i tried Synfire 10 years ago, but my knowledge of music theory was almost non-existent back then.

fast forward 10 years, and now Synfire is exactly what i need.
i've tried a lot of these kind of tools in the past couple of years.

...which leads me to Generators.
i also own Rapid Composer, and if we take the Melody Generator for example, the quantities of parameters one can fiddle with is overwhelming.
i enjoy a lot more drawing figures in Synfire.
for me, it's more creative, artistic and quicker than tweaking countless parameters and click on Regenerate.

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I am really loving the creation process with RC. It's a tool that allows me to explore and express myself while having lots of fun doing it. So far I am surprised and delighted with this piece which is a work in progress.  https://tigerboytom.bandcamp.com/track/baroque-piano-cello-work-in-progress

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