A static mode note entry for music lessons

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janamdo's picture
janamdo
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A static mode note entry for music lessons

Is it possible to add a static mode ( bypass voice-leading ) for the editors in Synfire

On this way i can have the same note input from my music lessons.

Only when Synfire is running the voice-leading is working .. i call this the dynamic mode

 

It seems to me a fantastic improvement ! 

blacksun's picture
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I don't understand what you mean... I've used static figures in lots of songs and they never change. Mostly ths is for drums, a snare is always a snare, a kick a kick. It doesn't matter what the chord progression does or what the voce leading settings are. I've also used ths to enter in a vocal melody or other parts of a tune I I'm remixing and want to remain exactly the same as the original and again synfire never changes the pitch of any of the notes.
I don't understand how what you want is different?

Phy6's picture
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I don't get it either.
When you import the midi as static, it will all stay as it is.

janamdo's picture
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    I don't get it either.
When you import the midi as static, it will all stay as it is.

 

  No.. i don't want import it...i do want make the phrases in Synfire itself ( without Big Brother "VL" ( voiceleading) on the  background :silent:

The situation is now when i add a progression and symbols to make a phrase ..the voiceleading is changing the pitch of the symbols (notes)

 

Example : make a key in Dminor and make the scalenotes ...check the scale in your Vsti when it has keys who are pressed ( HALion 4 has keys what shows exactly what notes are used for the scale ) 
By bypassing the voice leading you get the right scale..try out !

 

This morning i make a test: see enclosed file
If you play this..it is not the original Dminor scale ( because the voiceleading is changing it ) ..if you bypass the VL you get the original Dminor scale.  
The point is with a bypassed Voice leading i can input with the scaleboard the traditional notes who are written in a leadsheet or a classical composition..to name something

 

I hope you will now understand what my point is? 

janamdo's picture
janamdo
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I don't understand how what you want is different?

Yes it is different ..there is no import of midi files.. i make the (midi ) file inside Synfire ( i am my own master of the Universe http://www.mutools.com/mulab/demo-sessions/master-of-the-universe.mp3 )..for getting  in the rigth mood

blacksun's picture
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Hi janamdo, I often play the notes in via a keyboard or drum pads and press record in synfire. Once I've recorded what I want, change the interpretation to static (select static from the drop down list) and hey presto, it plays back exactly as its recorded. I can then edit it, or harmonise against it. I haven't tried using the scale board to enter notes but would expect it to work the same way. Switch to the take and select static.

juergen's picture
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  No.. i don't want import it...i do want make the phrases in Synfire itself ( without Big Brother "VL" ( voiceleading) on the  background 

By bypassing the voice leading you get the right scale..try out !

 

I also don't understand what you mean.

You already know that Voice Leading changes your notes and you also know that you can avoid that by activating "Bypass". So, what exactly is the feature you are asking for?

 

blacksun's picture
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Janamdo check out http://users.cognitone.com/content/harmonize-melody which shows recording directly into synfire as static notes at the beginning. For your purposes you shouldn't check the monophonic box though so you can do chords.

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Janamdo check out http://users.cognitone.com/content/harmonize-melody which shows recording directly into synfire as static notes at the beginning. For your purposes you shouldn't check the monophonic box though so you can do chords.
I don't think that a static import is exactly what he wants. I think he would rather like to have that entered figures are directly mapped to a given scale (without interference with Synfire's voice leading features).
janamdo's picture
janamdo
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I also don't understand what you mean.

You already know that Voice Leading changes your notes and you also know that you can avoid that by activating "Bypass". So, what exactly is the feature you are asking for?

I ask for a more userfriendly input of symbols ... more easy and not hidden in a jumpmenu
When i add a start chord for a scale ..than i must bypass the voiceleading

I like to have a more convienant userinterface for this .. button  ( bypass voiceleading )

 

janamdo's picture
janamdo
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  I don't think that a static import is exactly what he wants.

Hi Blacksun

Exactly... no import ( static or normal) i don't want that ..do you get the idea now better formulated by @Juergen ?
I like to have a beter userinterface for this..bypassing the voiceleading and also starting !

On this way you can make with the scaleboard your own phrases from written music literture.

blacksun's picture
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It's not an import static or otherwise. Andre is playing notes on a keyboard with his fingers in real time and synfire is recording it into a take. As a static sequence it will always play back the same, but you can use synfire's toolset against it to create harmonised chord progressions, analyse the sequence for key and scale info, etc.
if you change the key or chord progression it will still play back the same, but you are free to then change the interpretation to chords, melody or whatever with or without voice leading on or off. It will then match the new progression.

janamdo's picture
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There is no steprecording possible in Synfire and playing live the lessons i study seems to me impossible

It's not an import static or otherwise. Andre is playing notes on a keyboard with his fingers in real time and synfire is recording it into a take

 

The patterns i study are not for live recordings suitable ( i am not a trained pianist) ..that 's why it must be done with the scaleboard 

juergen's picture
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I like to have a more convienant userinterface for this .. button  ( bypass voiceleading )

You have to tick just one checkbox ("Bypass") per instrument. And that's valid for the whole container. Is that really inconvenient?

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blacksun's picture
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It doesn't matter how the notes get there, play them in on a keyboard, draw them in via the mouse/pen tool, use the scale board, import them from a file. If the interpretation s set to static you will get exactly what you ave entered back, effectively static has voice leading turned off and all other synfire magic too. Although its easy to turn the magic back on if you decide to turn one of your lessons into an original piece of music.

janamdo's picture
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You have to tick just one checkbox ("Bypass") per instrument. And that's valid for the whole container. Is that really inconvenient?

I do have Synfire Express...is it working there as you described ?

I use the interpretation from the parameter tab and go to template for Bypass for a track

 

blacksun's picture
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Janamdo, I have been suggesting you use static interpretation type, not turning off voice leading. My suggestion was based on what I thought you were trying to do...enter some music from paper lessons and have synfire play it back exactly as you entered it. If you don't use static, even with voice leading turned off, synfire can change the notes played. As an example, synfire will introduce chord inversions should the notes actually be outside the playing range of the instrument. Static mode stops this happening (at least I believe so as I've never had synfire play a kick instead of a hihat).

janamdo's picture
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It doesn't matter how the notes get there,

Ok, but i like to work with the scaleboard inside Synfire and it seems with Synfire Express a hassle to go to the tab interpretation ( on / off )  with jumpmenu

@Juergen has added a picture what shows a tickbox for  bypass -->  a difficult and laborious task to  perform

 

Also the phrase made with the scaleboard can be pulled into the library and  there is no interpretation for voice leading ( i don't want, because i can not use it again as studyobject when the voiceleading chanced it )

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@Juergen has added a picture what shows a tickbox for  bypass -->  a difficult and laborious task to  perform

Ah, I think I'm beginning to understand. The problem is that you want constantly switch voice leading on and off (for comparison) and it's annoying that you always have to return to that Tab? This?

 

janamdo's picture
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even with voice leading turned off, synfire can change the notes played

Suppose i use the scaleboard and bypass the voiceleading and you said that Synfire still can chance the symbols..what else must be set off to preserve the lessonexample ?--. playingrange ?

The playing range of the instrument can be checked during  symbol entry  with the scaleboard
I can see the playing range of the chord and using chord inversions with scaleboard instead of rootchords makes it unlikely that you get suprizes

 

I cannot enter symbols with the scaleboard when the voice leading is on ...! 

 

janamdo's picture
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The problem is that you want constantly switch voice leading on and off (for comparison) and it's annoying that you always have to return to that Tab?

Yes, comparison is possible and interesting to perform too ! , but i might aspect that the music sounds good with the praised voiceleading

Annoying this tab it is .. a more usrfriendly voiceleading on/off

I open the arrangement and on the instrument track there can be a switch for voice leading on/off 

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I cannot enter symbols with the scaleboard when the voice leading is on ...! 

What do you mean by that? For entering symbols with the scaleboard it is irrelevant whether voice leading is on or off.

 

I open the arrangement and on the instrument track there can be a switch for voice leading on/off 

 

Jan, you must see that you use a very ...erm ... 'unconventional' workflow at the moment. Most people need to operate this Bypass switch only in a few exceptional situations. Usually it's a good idea to leave voice leading activated. I understand the reason why you want to turn it off at the moment, but what you are doing now is simply not the normal use of Synfire. 


juergen's picture
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When the voice leading is on i can use the scaleboard, but not for symbol input for lessons to follow, because i can't get the right notes. ( the voiceleading is changing them )

Hmm. Voice Leading does not change symbols at the input. It has an effect only at the playback. Or in other words: When you enter the symbols with VL active and you switch it off afterwards (i.e. after entering the symbols) then you have the same result as if you had VL switched off from the beginning. So, you can enter the symbols independently from the VL setting and you can change the VL setting afterwards as you want. Why don't you leave it switched off all the time if you just want to enter the lessons?

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Hmm. Voice Leading does not change symbols at the input.

no ..see my example of a Dminor scale with or without voiceleading.. when i click on it it chanceable ( depending on on/off voiceleading )

d-e = Dminor scale

d-f ... = Voiceleading

so note e become a note  f 

although the scaleboardposition stays the same

 

Exactly you said... switching off the Voiceleading is the solution, but more userfriendly in Synfire with a button  ( i hope that @supertonic and @andré not get upset from this idea ;) 

Making phrases in the bypass (static mode) is still not that easy because the middle line is the tonic note ( start note) of the scale
For C major i  know the nummering of the lines in the phrase editor, as example:   : C3 = 0 and  7 is C4  and because i worked a while with Cmajor than the numbering of the scaleboard and the score lines is known

But for other scales you must draw a line in your score paper where the startnote of the scale is..this is than the middle line in the scaleboard.

Every written score you can than use in Synfire     

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no ..see my example of a Dminor scale with or without voiceleading.. when i click on it it chanceable ( depending on on/off voiceleading )

d-e = Dminor scale

d-f ... = Voiceleading

so note e become a note  f 

although the scaleboardposition stays the same

 

Yes, when you click on the symbol you hear different notes depending on VL on or off.

What I wanted to say, is that the position of the symbols in editor will not change, regardless if VL is on or not. So, when you click on the number "1" at the scaleboard, the symbol will always be placed one line above (or below) of the middle line, regardless if VL is on or off. Why not enter the figures simply on the principle: "I want to enter a note at the third scalestep so I have to press the number "2" at the scaleboard (because it's counted from 0 there)". That simple. After you have entered everything you still can assign your figures to any scale you want (A minor, C phrygian, Eb hungarian minor, what ever you want) and you are also still free to experiment with voice leading on/off. 

 

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Yes, i study my musiclessons for a particulair scale(s).. i interesting idea to chance the key and look what musical happens

There was a study arrangement what has 3 keychanges ..
Ok let me go back to the lessons and look if i can make a progression there also..thanks

 

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Blacksun, about you suggestion to not turning off voice leading , than i cannot use the scaleboard

Janamdo, I have been suggesting you use static interpretation type, not turning off voice leading.

       

 

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I cannot enter symbols with the scaleboard when the voice leading is on ...!

What do you mean by that? For entering symbols with the scaleboard it is irrelevant whether voice leading is on or off.

 

Of course i can enter symbols , but not what i want overtake from a score or lessons ( see my post above about the Dminor scale )

When the voice leading is on i can use the scaleboard, but not for symbol input for lessons to follow, because i can't get the right notes. ( the voiceleading is changing them )

 

My workflow is not really that unconventional : i want make phrases inside synfire with the scaleboard from written music.
It is in fact a normal use .. like in every DAW is possible

@Juergen as you stated seems to me the world upside down..

janamdo's picture
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  Still got a problem to input with the scaleboard with a lydian melody from Gary Gutmann.. i did not succeed to get this lessonmelody with the scaleboard and loose track on this symbol input ( VL off and the default key is Cmajor )

So i bring in the notes without the accidental as Gary Guttman has not in his lesson ( he shows the accidentals..to be sure that his student can follow his lessons..based on a C major scale..the student has only to augment the fourth of the scale to get the C-lydian scale )

I bring in the symbols as said and must chance the default Cmajor key ( without VL)  into a C-lydian
( i made a palette for C-lydian ) and drop the C-lydian chord on the progression to be sure that the key off the arrangement is C-lydian..but now is VL again working and chances the symbols.. so  i must bypass the VL and now must the melody be heard in C lydian scale.. but as it seemsi don't get the right lydian melody ( :shock: )

The scaleboard acts as a sort of steprecording input.  

The lesson is in C lydian with a accidental for f ( #4) ..most easy is that the input is without input of accidentals and the scale selection done by me in Synfire triggers the right note
Gary Guttman as composer can nothing do with Synfire, because he cannot bring in his notes...it make no sense to input the accidentals all the time ...very laborious and not clever.--> But it seems for Synfire necessarry to work on this way ..the default key is C major..i discoverd later.
A static input of symbols with the scaleboard and VL off must have the same input as Gary Gutmann his lessons.
That was my whole idea to get phrases what look the same as written music

 

Continued...try to get it working.. 

Not to be able to input any scale by the scaleboard on a easy way makes that Synfire cannot be a serious composingtool for people who are working with written music, because the symbol input cannot always be with a keyboard  

I don't know how to use Synfire Pro with keyswitching when i not can input the music from written music   

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Still trying to get the Lydian melody...now i try to set a a global key ..a selfmade scale what only contains C.major-#4 ( that is the Lydian C horizontal scale..strange when  drop this from the vertical scale onto the palette ..the name change from lydian into C.major-#4 --> i like to have the Lydian name as reference scale in the palette( in this case i know that the C lydian scale is the C major scale with a raised fourth ).

As scaleset i had all scales assembled for the lessons in one palette..but with the "alternative scale" sets option for the global key and the C lydian scale as refence scale (=C.major-#4) i did not get the desired scale  Clydian
Now i removed all other scales in the scaleset , so the remaining scaleset is than the C lydian scale --> the global key option comes now  as "dominating scale"with the C jdscaleset ( as i name the scaleset : jdscaleset..better is to name it jdlydian than for future .. to recognize it easier.
That's good when the "dominating scale" is C jdscaleset..it could that the Clydian scale is triggered ? ..let me check this if the C lydian melody notes do have the right pitch?   

 

Yes, it  seem thay i have now the C lydian scale !, but the f note is not raised to fis ( that is because i did not input it, because i thougt i set the note on the f and when i set the scale on C Lydian the software is corrected this --> wrong assumption from me ..only when i put the VL on.
When the VL is off i must in static mode input the rigth note positions..like in Gary Gutmann also did .. i made a mistake with this.

 

For static input lessons ..VL off and input the same as in the lessons with all accidentals unfortaneley by hand input...
Only with VL on.. the notes get the right position ( example you made the C scale in the phrase editor and with Vl on chance this in say G majorscale  ( # 4 ) than the noteposition stays the same in the phrase editor, but the f is become fis ) ..tricky  

I think i do have almost my Lydian melody ..

 

 

proto's picture
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Im just reading this but cant you

1.go to the palette for gmajor, grab a c major chord and insert it at bar 1

2. go to main arrange window, and enter a stream of 1/8th notes starting at the center line <o> up to 7 line

2a. make sure notes are green <verticle mode>

3. go to interpretation/voice leading tab and select full scale option, then none, and then weak options

this give you c lydian no?

 

is this what you want?

proto

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janamdo
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Thanks

 

Yes, i do want make a C-lydian scale in a default arrangment ( Voiceleading = General Purpose Default  ) VL=on

 

I can now get a Lydian mode with bypassing the VL ( voice leading ) in the phrase editor.
With bypassing the VL i can enter the symbols from lessons in the traditional notation ( note )

( your idea uses VL on and than i cannot anymore enter symbols from lessons ( chanced noteposition by the AI engine )

---------------------------------------------

Using  C lydian in a standard arrangement ( with VL on) means that you must use a C-lydian palette for this
It is good exercise to extend the  default palettes with this palette scale
The global key must be than set on C-lydian if you want compose with this scale ( #4 comparing with C-major)

 

Perhaps a C pentatonic -major scale ( has only 5 notes ) for composing as exercise to get for the arrangement

 

Your setup in the progression editor..there you can choose a vertical scale  c- lydian ( after first have made a scaleset with a Lydian scale in it) .. than as global key ..the Lydian scale must be there visable--> no... i just make this setup and after dropping the Cmajor triad on the progression you get a horizontal/vertical , key /relation options

 -Vertical : C.lydian
- Horizontal C.major-#4 ( Synfire chances thename for lydian scale in this one ?)
- Key : E.minor

- Relation: C.Lydian

So the global key is determined by Synfire as a E.minor scale ( the Lydian scale is used for modal harmony = Lydian mode )

Note

If you start on the fourth note of the C major scale and make a scale from this ( look at the steps of the scale )
This pattern of steps you must perform starting from the C-note .than you get the "Lydian Mode" scale for modal harmony.  

 

All the time i was focussed to get the right scale with Bypassing Voiceleading, now i must also be able to setup a scale in the default mode of Synfire..so i try this out ..the C-lydian scale by first make a scaleset for it (named Lydian) and than choose a vertical scale c-lydian..than as Global key you get the C.Lydian(name global key) scale. ( for modal harmony )

Let me try this out.  

 

 

 

 

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