Posted
The mysterious power of the Variation parameter appears to be to alter the note lengths of phrasees in a musical fashion. It's random nature leads to serendipitous results ... but it would be nice to increase control over them.
I'm still working it out, but it appears that in the phrase editor window when one of the little 'balls' is below the midline the notes are lengthened and when above they are shortened. (Please correct me if i'm wrong!).
While the line and paint brush tools work, there are no segment (understandable) or symbol tool.
It would be nice if there was a symbol tool to grab an existing 'ball' in the editor and move it to try to vary the variation in a predictable fashion. You can raise or lower the ball in an imprecise fashion (and add more balls) with the paint brush tool, but I would like to see he symbol tool also active for this parameter.
Prado
Mon, 2012-12-17 - 21:18 Permalink
Hi
+1 * +1
The power of the parameter variation is fascinating but i think that is supceptible of improvements adding other tools,added to weak medium and strong options,are great.
We can find similar functions in another daw:
-In Reason in the Tools Window Alter Notes function.
-In Ableton in Max Audio effects Buffer Shufller and in Max Midi Effect,in Tools Max MidiShuffler
Are great,you can divide the bar,in the snap that you like,for example 1/4, and reorder the parts between them and also you can lock one or more of them and reorder the another parts between them.
This would be great to do with container,one tool that divide the container in parts-snap and reorder between them and the option of lock the part or parts that you dont want to alter.
This would be great to do also with the notes of the phrases in the phrase editor with the variation parameter but with more control,about parts-snap of the bar and the notes that you want to apply it or not,with amount of probability to Alter between selected notes and Swap between selected notes of the phrases.
I think that the variation parameter is a hiden treasure.
I love Synfire Pro :yeah: :listen:
:admire:
Mon, 2012-12-17 - 22:22 Permalink
The goal would be to be able to save variations like you save phrases, so that you could have a library of them to apply to selected parts of the phrase, instead of to the entire phrase.
In fact, I wish the phrase editor had the general option to select and 'lock' a sub-part of it according to the grid and then have the parameter edits only apply to the selected section of the phrase as long as that remain 'locked.'
Think how wonderful that could be to add to containers for subtle variations on a main theme in a 'bequeathing' container.
If we have 'inheritance,' we must have 'bequeathement' to refer to the containers from which we receive our inheritance!
Prado
Mon, 2012-12-17 - 22:37 Permalink
Hi
Excuse me,my english is very poor and limited and i easily lose the concepts of the sentences.
Prado,i suppose that you know that you can save libraries of the variation parameter?
You can create a variation weak,medium or strong random and then drag the variation parameter tab to the library window and is saved,i did it but the problem is that when i applied that variation "preset" to another phrases the resulted was not as i expected because the variation parameter is very abstract,confuse.
Regards :D
Tue, 2012-12-18 - 01:24 Permalink
Hi Prado
Yes,you can save as preset in the window library parameters without phrases.
In the right side of the instrument sheets there is the column of the parameters : Harmony-Velocity-Variation....
You can take the tab of the parameter and drag and drop to the Library window and there File: Save or Save as and you can open that library in another song and use it.
With harmony parameter also works.You can create libraries of Harmony-velocity-volume....parameters and apply them in another projects.Synfire is amazing
Regards from Spain :hello:
Tue, 2012-12-18 - 02:32 Permalink
Wow! How did I miss this? A whole new world of possibility.
I love Spain ... I've visited at least six times. My favorite places are Santa Cruz/ Triana and Santiago De Compostella. Of course the Albacin isn't too shabby, either!
For the variation parameter to be useful, assuming the same number of bars from the original use and the new application, I think there are two conditions.
1. There must be approximately the same number of notes in the container.
2. The total length of the notes summed must be similar. If you had originally used it to vary 8 bars with 16 1/4 notes and ... to take extreme examples, tried to vary either 8 bars with 8 whole notes or 8 bars with 8 1/64th notes ... you would first probably get nothing and second get something totally different.
I think this because what I hear is notes length changed and notes repositioned in the container section when variation is applied.
Prado
Tue, 2012-12-18 - 12:47 Permalink
Hi Prado
Thanks to your kind words about Spain,is a lovely country and very varied : Andalucia-Vascongadas-Galicia-Asturias.....
Is Wonderful . I suggest you to visit ibiza,is a magical island.
Sure that Andre,Supertonic and Juergen or who knows can clarify us the secrets,the behavior of the mysterious parameter Variation.
I think it would be the best to do a video tutorial about Variation Parameter,now for us is very confused.
Regards
Tue, 2012-12-18 - 22:16 Permalink
Janamdo,
I am having difficulty following your comments.
The manual does suggest a way to 'test' the effect of the different elevations of the 'balls' over the segments in a phrase:make a new container and a 'snap shot' to reveal how the figure was changed by the parameter. It says the transformed position will not be visible in the original window, but can be seen in a snapshot.
What is not described is the interaction of the available templates ... which can be reapplied and reapplied until you find something satisfactory, with the number of segments in any given figure. That can obviously change from similar passage.
It is also not clear if the successive 'balls' randomly represent one of the 25 transform functions and the vertical elevation a template or intensity of that transform function.
I'm now thinking that maybe each ball is a separate transform and the order in which they appear horizontal is randomized. Then the vertical axis reflects some template choice or intensity of the transform function. Finally, that the transforms are cumulative horizontally across the segments of the figure.
How is that for some idle, arm chair speculation?
I now see my first surmise was naive and incorrect: the vertical position of the 'ball's does much more than change the note lengths.
Also, the line tool and paint brush do work on the graphics of the Variation parameter in the editor. Presumably they are making actual changes.
If I get some extra time, I plan to make a short 1 bar figure with a couple of segments, and then vary the vary the elevation of just one 'ball,' record the midi and see what the variation does.
Anyway, the parameter is clearly misnamed. It should have been called 'The Happy Accident.'
Prado
Tue, 2012-12-18 - 23:32 Permalink
Thanks
Well i try to reasoning how it exactly works the variation parameter
..like you are doing now ..keep on going!
I am having difficulty following your comments.
Is it the formulation/content of the subject ..or is it the grammar what i use what makes that you find it difficult ?
It is also not clear if the successive 'balls' randomly represent one of the 25 transform functions and the vertical elevation a template or intensity of that transform function.
I was assuming that the vertical floating point values are the transformations ( one of the 25 ) itself..generated by a random number generator ( but i think Cognitone has ofcourse a more complicated algorithm used what looks at the symbol group)
If I get some extra time, I plan to make a short 1 bar figure with a couple of segments, and then vary the vary the elevation of just one 'ball,' record the midi and see what the variation does.
That is trail and error .. why there is no information about where the "ball" stands for at a certain value.
Wed, 2012-12-19 - 00:13 Permalink
Is it the formulation/content of the subject ..or is it the grammar what i use what makes that you find it difficult ?
Jan, this is a hard question to answer. Since I don't know your writing style in Nederlands/ Dutch,I don't know how much of the difficulty is in your style or in your English grammar construction and punctuation.
Yes, the grammar is confusing at times. If I were an Enlish teacher critiquing your writing as it is in English (which I know is unfair to you!) I would say that things are difficult to read because you tend to write 'run on' sentences without clear stops to know when when one idea ends and another begins.
I thinkfor the purpose of translating your excellent thoughts into English it would help if you try to write sentences as short and simple as possible. Finish one idea and then use a new sentence to go to the next idea that is directly linked. Then start a new paragraph when you go to a new idea that is not as directly linked.
Pease and respect.
Prado
Wed, 2012-12-19 - 00:26 Permalink
See the encyclopedia of Parameters in the manual to get a better idea of it : Variation
This text needs more clarification to see this in a broader perspective
Do you understand this "Variation" text ?
I think you can use 3 vector(lines) : weak, medium and strong
Suppose there is existing segment : can you compare a existing vecor for this segment ( if possible) with a new one?
You must compare the source vector with a target vector : if they are looking the same than there is not much variation of the segment.. it is not much adding new variation of the segment.
Make it uneven..means that the start vector differs from the target vector
I will experiment with this.
I get the impression that variation here is generated by SFP/E is a random variation here and differs only in how much is chanced from the original phrase or segment.
There is no control for the user about the nature of the variation: example say you want to chance a 1 bar motif in a sequenze( the original motif , but now with a different pitch) motif in bar 2
So a "sequenze motif" ( the motif on a different pitch as one of the possible motive chances made by th eperson who is working on the motif) must be made in the phrase editor itself by hand .. or do i miss something about the variation parameter?
Note: i don't understand the next senteces in the manual:
There are 25 transformations altogether ( Invert, Transpose, ...and more ) each of which is represented by a floating-point number between 0 and 1 . This allow ....... control over this process
----------------------------
what does this mean exactly ?
Each transformation has a decimal number ..so number 0,1 stands for Smooth ( as example? ), It goes from 0 to 1 so there are 100 transformations to assign from each floating punt number from 0 to 1, but there are 25 that give what room between them in the phrase editor as points
Are 25 transformation performed on a phrase or segement in one go than ?.. i think so yes , because you cannot make a transformation for say transpose alone with the variation editor ( make a sequenze motif )
The real variation of a melody you must do in the phrase editor itself by "transformation" and by chances of the phrase structure with you r own knowledg eof repetition and variation ?..do not aspect too much from the variation parameter, because you cannot buildup a phrase in a structured way ( i think )..someone disagree?